Draft:Kashana Cauley – People have various qualms about how we got here, but the end result is clearly endorsed. Feel free to start an AfD if desired. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
This draft was nominated under WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE, and - after the discussion had been open for over a week - it was procedurally closed by a non-admin after their moving of the draft to mainspace. As I mentioned on the closer's talk, I believe that this was a bad close for several reasons:
I don't believe that it was fair towards the nominator or the discussion's participants for the (reasonably well-attended) MfD to have been procedurally closed based on a move that occurred some time after the discussion had started (in addition, I would question whether it's appropriate to move a draft currently at MfD to mainspace at all, given that this could effectively short-circuit/nullify any discussion that had already taken place). I see this as especially true due to the fact that, in this situation, the same rationale - WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE - applies regardless of the discussion venue.
Given the split of opinions expressed by editors in the MfD, I believe that this was a WP:BADNAC - i.e., that [t]he outcome [was] a close call...or likely to be controversial, and so the MfD should therefore have been closed by an administrator. (I'd also argue that closing this discussion as procedural close was likely to be controversial in and of itself.)
The closer was involved with regards to the page in question, having edited the draft and accepted it/moved it to mainspace. I disagree with the closer's assertion that their involvement does not matter...because the close is of a procedural type - there is nothing in WP:PROCEDURAL that excludes such closes from the requirement to be uninvolved, and I don't believe that this is an appropriate situation to IAR.
I therefore believe that the closure should be overturned, and the page moved back to draftspace pending the outcome of the MfD. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 11:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse own procedural close. The close was a mere recording of an objective fact that the discussed page is no more from the standpoint of MfD. There had been a draft and then the draft was no more, so there's nothing to do in an MfD. That's not a close call or a non-close call, it's not a call. There is no dispute in which I might be involved. The AfC accept was not an outcome of the MfD discussion. The mainspacing comes fist in time and in the logic of things. The close is just a recording an objective fact that came first, indpendently from the MfD. I could, in my independent capacity, and I did, accept the submission because the submission is okay, and that is for an AfC reviewer to decide, not for MfD, as MfD is not a venue to review pending AfC submissions. A running MfD does not suspend AfC, and does not transform drafting from an optional to an obligatory apparatus. Once the move is performed WP:DRAFTOBJECT applies and the only recourse is AfD. I notified the concerned subject at User talk:Blacksun83#Article instructing her to start an AfD if they wish.—Alalch E. 11:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Following this logic, if there was an AfD open, and someone unilaterally moved it to draft during the discussion, would that mean that the AfD would need to be procedurally closed as "the discussed page is no more from the standpoint of [AfD]. There had been a[n article] and then the [article] was no more, so there's nothing to do in an [AfD]"? I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with unilateral page moves to render a discussion mid-way through moot. Daniel (talk) 12:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't symmetrical. Drafting is an optional mechanism, subservient to the encyclopedia in the narrower sense (the article space). Article space takes precedence and is where the matter of what pages constitute the encyclopedia gets truly settled. It would not be appropriate to move to draftspace during a running AfD, but it is appropriate to mainspace during a running MfD. MfD discussions about deleting drafts quickly stop making sense when editors in good standing (multiple in this case) start believing that the page should not be a draft but an article. That's generally when MfD should stop and AfD should start. MfDs to delete drafts are for very problematic pages that exist as drafts for which no one thinks they are worthy of article space, and the issue is whether it's sufficiently important and purposeful to delete those drafts before G13 kicks in (often a pretty esoteric question and often useless to even contemplate). When a reasonable AfC submission is made and editors exist who believe that not only should the page not be deleted, but that it should be an article (entirely different from merely not deleting the draft which is independent from the issue of whether that page will ever become an article), that transforms the nature of the dispute: It's not about whether to delete quicker than the natural course of things dictates, it's about whether to have or not to have a particular article in the encyclopedia, which is an issue of article deletion/retention, and is no longer a topical matter in an MfD. —Alalch E. 12:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can sort-of accept that. I'll say endorse close of the MfD, while noting I'm still not 100% sold on the act of moving an article from Draft to mainspace halfway through an MfD. But that's a totally different conversation. Daniel (talk) 21:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural close this and start a fresh AfD. WP:BADNAC is there to prevent adjudication by those who don't have the tools, the experience, or the trust of the community to close such discussions. However, in this case, no adjudication was required. The closer merely informed participants that the MfD was now moot, as the closer has already moved the article to mainspace. Yes, it was the same closer who moved the page from draft to mainspace, but they did so rigorously following our AfC guidelines. Since no adjudication was required in the procedural close of the MfD, the issue of WP:INVOLVED is also of no practical bearing. Had Alalch E. accepted the AfC and asked a fellow editor to close the MfD, the result couldn't have been any different. Such an extra step seems redundant, although it's fair to ask whether it should be followed for appearances' sake.
Should the AfC have been accepted while the MfD was open? A case could be made for withholding AfC acceptance until the MfD (which was already open for nine days!) was closed, although I don't see any such requirement in our policies. But what would be the benefit of such a delay? Deleting the draft would not create a G4 basis for deleting a subsequent mainspace article anyway. And with sourcing that meets our BLP policy, any editor, including the original author of the draft, would be rightly encouraged to recreate the article for an apparently notable person. Which brings me to my recommendation of withdrawing this DRV, and starting a fresh AfD for the article, ideally notifying all the participants of the MfD. Once deleted in mainspace, recreation will be restricted based on our policies, which is the remedy the appellant and the subject of the article are seeking. Owen×☎ 12:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Hi, I am the subject of the article as well as the nominator, and I think this outcome was fair to me, the person who made the deletion request in the first place, for reasons I will explain below. I became aware that there was a draft about me when I started to be deluged by scammers who wanted me to pay them to rewrite it and get it accepted. It got so bad that I took my publicly available email off the internet, but they still kept coming. I figured I had two options to try and get them to stop contacting me: I could try to get the article deleted, or I could try to get it accepted. Acceptance seemed complicated and less favorable, since I honestly thought the draft should have been accepted in the first place, since my novel was selected for two things: indies introduce and indie next, that are an enormous deal in the book world. So when it was declined, I realized I didn’t know what qualified for wiki acceptance, or even how to go about trying to get acceptance without running afoul of the conflict of interest guidelines. Requesting a deletion seemed like the more straightforward option, so I tried that. I was well aware that I might be deemed notable over the course of the review, since my novel has enjoyed even more of the non-interview, secondary coverage you all prefer here since the first version of the article was submitted. I have looked over the accepted article and think it is accurate, and a fine article to have on Wikipedia. Having an accepted article will also make the scammers who want me to pay to get an article accepted lose interest in emailing me all the time, so it is also, in my opinion, an ok option, and an outcome that fulfills my original goal of defeating the scammers. I obviously cannot speak for all the people involved in the other discussion, and for all I know, if the article is kept an entirely new type of scammer may fall out of the sky, but the outcome of all of this is an article I approve of. Thank you, User talk:Alalch E.. Blacksun83 (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. You're also welcome to suggest changes to the article on its talk page, especially as new independent reliable sources emerge in the future, enabling more comprehensive coverage. I'm sorry about your experience with the scammers. The best way to protect Wikipedia from disruption from the scammers is to keep our processes sane and clean and keep priorities straight at all times. —Alalch E. 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IAR Delete which I am fully aware isn't an answer here. When you have a draft that the subject does not want, for myriad reasons, moving it to mainspace because you can is not what should be done especially when consensus at MfD is trending toward deletion. This is not what is intended by draftspace being optional. So within policy, move back to draft space where there are fewer eyes on it, and let the MfD run. If consensus changes, AfC can be determined. StarMississippi 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC) Leaving the first part, which was less about this situation and more in general of procedure. But in light of the subject's comment (thanks both for the heads up) I guess my BLP comment is moot. To closer: please don't let my comment stand in the way. StarMississippi 14:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please take a look at the comment by the user who says they are the subject and who had originated the BLPREQUESTDELETE left in this DRV: Special:Diff/1223182504/1223192509 —Alalch E. 14:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment as appellant: Following the comment here by the article's subject, I no longer seek this page's deletion/moving back to draftspace. I'm not closing this review as withdrawn, as I still believe that the closure was procedurally erroneous given the information available at the time (and so stand by my request for its review), as other editors have commented on the issue of moving the draft to mainspace mid-MfD, and as I can't speak for all of the participants who !voted delete in that discussion. That being said, I'd like to apologise to Blacksun83 for the somewhat drawn-out process that this has become, and for any part I've played in that - and I hope that this puts an end to you being contacted by the scammers. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 14:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, and thank you. Blacksun83 (talk) 14:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Procedural MfD close. Whether moving something from draft to mainspace while an MfD is in process is procedurally appropriate is a separate question, but an MfD can't delete a mainspace article, full stop, so the close was proper. Separately, the article subject appears notable based on the coverage in the article at the time I write this, so regardless of what it looked like before, it almost certainly should not be deleted on the basis of subject request, because LPI/NPF is for edge cases and does not apply to someone who unequivocally meets notability criteria. We should explore other ways besides deletion to help the article subject minimize disruption brought on by becoming "notable" in Wikipedia's eyes. Jclemens (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse procedural MFD close per above. Anyone can start an AFD on the newly mainspaced article if they so choose. FrankAnchor 16:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse procedural MfD close given Blacksun83's comments here and their withdrawal of their nomination in the MfD. If people wish to take it to AfD I'm sure they can work it out. TarnishedPathtalk 06:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as moot per Blacksun83. For the record the procedural close was clearly wrong at the time it was made, though. * Pppery *it has begun... 19:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Involved Endorse - I originally !voted to Delete, based on the request of the subject, and now support retention of the article based on the changed opinion of the subject, as well as the marginal notability of the subject. The closer was right in closing the MFD based on the changed circumstances. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We're currently at a good outcome where the deletion rationale no longer applies, so this is basically moot. However, I have a big problem with a procedural close of an MfD after the user procedurally closed it had accepted it at AfC, therefore being involved, and while quite rare, would have !voted to overturn on those grounds if the deletion rationale still existed. SportingFlyerT·C 03:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is an important point, but I didn't belabor this point as DRV is not a user conduct review forum. Jclemens (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I welcome any comments on my talk page. —Alalch E. 10:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
