- French ship Gapeau (B284) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
A contentious AfD closed by a non-admin as a "no consensus / leaning keep", four days after it being relisted. Closing rationale makes it clear the closer was aware of the contentiousness, yet chose to ignore it. I reverted the close as an obvious BADNAC, with a polite notice on the closer's Talk page. The closer chose to lash back at me and re-close. I believe this one is best left for an admin to close, once the seven days since the last relist are up. Owen× ☎ 11:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, OwenX, for misrepresenting me. See my close for full detail. To clarify their points:It was not a particularly contentious topic or discussion, the latter being, while small, always calm. My closing rationale does not indicate otherwise.OwenX may not have refreshed themselves with WP:RELIST, but they are repeating the same error here as they made at my talk: it is explicitly allowed to close before a seven-day period after a relist is up, if a determination can be made. And since that determination can include a determination that no consensus can be reached, there was no early close. More generally, can OwenX dial back the bad faith? I did not "ignore" anything; I did not "lash back" (indeed, I had already reclosed when I saw his message, as I had added a corollary); this language is merely an attempt to present the NAC as knee-jerk, hotheaded action performed in ignorance. It was none of those things; I was not uncivil (unless being wrong is no longer grounds for being told one is wrong. of course).Since their submission here is based solely on the grounds of a non-contentious discussion/topic being a bad nac when there was no such contention, and secondly on a misreading of our relist procedure, I suggest the submission falls. ——Serial Number 54129 11:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Your claim that this was an uncontentious AfD is, on its face, wrong. The nom from Fram was well-reasoned, there was a strong argument for Delete from Oaktree b, and a valid ATD suggested by The ed17. WP:BADNAC clearly tells us:
A non-admin closure is not appropriate in any of the following situations: [...] The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial. . The fact that you closed it as "no consensus" tells us that this was a close call, making it a BADNAC. The issue of early closure is just the icing on this cake. Owen× ☎ 11:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. Per WP:NACD, deletion-related closes by a non-admin can be reopened by an uninvolved administrator acting in their individual capacity giving their reasoning; which is what seems to have happened here. While OwenX’s reopening can of course be challenged, my impression is that Serial Number 54129 should not have reclosed the discussion after OwenX took an administrative action to revert his previous close. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 11:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and allow for closure by an admin. The DRV should have happened in lieu of Serial's re-close if Serial believed Owen's re-close was wrong. Owen's re-opening was fine per an unsettled discussion. Star Mississippi 13:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. I'm not as big on the NAC essay as some of the other people at DRV, but this close is effectively Serial overturning the decision of an administrator unilaterially. Mach61 13:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Speedy overturn obvious WP:BADNAC and allow an admin to close. NACs are limited to discussions that are non-controversial, and a thrice-relisted discussion generally implies there is back-and-forth discussion and reasonable votes on either side. I do think NC is a reasonable outcome here, but should be left to an admin after the recent relist period is completed. Frank Anchor 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to allow for an admin closure.
- This close raises the same issue about bad non-administrative closure as other similar closes to come here to Deletion Review, which is when or whether a non-admin may close a deletion discussion as No Consensus. The language in question is
A non-admin closure is not appropriate in any of the following situations:… The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial.
It seems clear to the appellant and to the editors here who are saying to Overturn that a No Consensus call is almost always a close call, because there are almost always at least two valid outcomes. It therefore seems clear to some editors that a non-administrative close of No Consensus is almost always wrong. However, this closer is not the first non-admin to disagree with the overturning of their No Consensus call. Clearly there is disagreement about this information page and the guideline that it interprets. This disagreement should be discussed further at the Village Pump.
- In the meantime, this closure was a close call, and the fact that it is here at Deletion Review is a controversy.
- The closer was in particular wrong in reclosing, which is a form of wheel warring.
- This close should be overturned. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. A reasonable finding of a lack of consensus in a close by a non-admin is self-defeating because it translates to a reasonable estimation of the situation as a close call... so that editor, a non-admin, should not have closed. It could be argued that an "obvious" 'no consensus' close is not a close call, and in DRV we often see comments of the "obvious 'no consensus' close, no other way to close" type, but administrators can close even "/purportedly/ obvious 'no consensus'" discussions in a particular non-'no-consensus' way, by spotting a rough consensus after all, after weighing the arguments, using perhaps a non-obvious, but valid and acceptable reasoning, and while many such closes are less obvious or may be quite non-obvious, they can still be reasonable (and sometimes quite excellent and illuminating), and these closes would, in the alternative scenario involving the same discussion, also be endorsed—this time not as "obvious, no other way etc etc", but as "could also have been X, but Y is reasonable" or similar. And the latter type of truly contentious closes, that hinge on reasonableness, are obviously totally reserved for administrators. And when a non-administrator closes as no-consensus, even if it's an "obvious" 'no consensus', they eliminate this possibility, and that's not a net positive, because the possibility to get some other outcome should be left available to be exploited by an admin. It's for administrators to explore the realm of possibility and decide whether to make a "safer" or a more "risky" close; the latter is sometimes necessary to move things forward.—Alalch E. 23:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn Any action that would constitute wheel warring if taken by an admin, should, if taken by a non-admin, result in a block and topic ban from the affected process of an appropriate duration. Since DRV isn't the forum to decide that, the non-admin closer should carefully take this under advisement. Revert wars in admin areas or functions are just not appropriate. Oh, and yes, it shouldn't have been non-admin closed in the first place. Jclemens (talk) 01:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Speedy overturn, an uninvolved administrator reopened a debate per DELPRO#NAC in their individual capacity. To then see it re-closed by the same non-administrator is very unusual, and is a non-tools-used form of wheel warring (as Robert M and Jclemens put it above). Daniel (talk) 06:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn as a WP:BADNAC, since an administrative closer could have found for delete, i.e. the close was contentious. Re-closing after the close was vacated was more than just a trout-worthy error of judgment. SportingFlyer T·C 22:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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