- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Continuation of existing dispute, now over a footnote; look at "17:33, 14 July 2018 (UTC)" comment, then go to the "13:18, 18 July 2018 (UTC)" comment and keep reading through the "02:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)" comment. The disagreement is about whether a two-sentence footnote—as revised in the "01:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)" comment—whose first sentence does a routine calculation to reflect a source's written statement, and whose second sentence points out—using only a statement in that source and a statement in a preceding source—the reason why the two sources reach different conclusions, constitutes "buying advice" prohibited by some never-linked-to Wikipedia rule.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Requested a second Third Opinion. Erpert suggested DRN.
How do you think we can help?
Is the proposed revised footnote per the "01:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)" comment "an interpretive footnote explaining mathematically why ..., and ... an editor's narrative interpretation of material not expressly stated ..." (per John's "02:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)" comment), or is "The first sentence ... a routine calc. entirely from the text of the ref" and "the second sentence ... merely complies with 'If equally reliable sources disagree, present all ... inform'n'" (per Dovid's "01:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)" comment)?
Summary of dispute by DovidBenAvraham
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Here's the more-coherent rewrite of the footnote that JohnInDC still objects to:
- The third manufacturer reference cited in this sentence states that the 2010 industry average transport shock tolerance specification is drop-testing at a height of 36 inches (51 inches ÷ 140%) onto industrial carpeting. That contrasts with "You can do everything right with your drive, but drop it on a hard floor [emphasis added] as you pull it out of the safety deposit box, and like that, you’re off to the recovery service", which is the potential transport vulnerability in the PCWorld reference cited in the preceding sentence.
The first sentence in the rewrite is a routine calculation entirely from the text of the reference, which—as I have pointed out in my "04:09, 18 July 2018 (UTC)" comment—does not make it an inference according to WP rules. The second sentence in the rewrite highlights an apparent Conflict between sources, but I have not made a personal observation—merely complied with "If equally reliable sources disagree, present all of the information" accompanied by pointing out that the apparent disagreement results from two different definitions of drop testing. Note that I have made the first sentence of the rewrite klunkier by avoiding mention of the name Iomega as the author of the third reference; that should make scope_creep [another WP editor who thinks every mention of a manufacturer's name is advertising] happy.
Look at the last two or three sentences of the "Magnetic tape" and "Optical storage" and "Solid state storage" and "Remote backup service" paragraphs of this "Storage media" section of the article. Every one of those sentences is stating an advantage or a drawback of its particular type of storage media, and I didn't write those sentences. I split the former next-to-last sentence of the "Hard disk" paragraph because its existing "buying advice" was at least partially obsolete, but my new next-to-last sentence—which would end with the rewritten footnote—just presents the same kind of information that the equivalent sentences in the other paragraphs also present. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by JohnInDC
Here is the pertinent article text, showing the proposed footnote in context (I've stripped the wikilinks, and shorthanded the refs):
- One main disadvantage of hard disk backups vis-a-vis tape are that they are potentially more easily damaged, especially while being transported (e.g., for off-site backups) <PC World ref>. However, as the technology of ramp loading and the accelerometer (sometimes termed a "shock sensor") has migrated over the last few years from laptop computers down to individual hard disks, three manufacturers' descriptions of their portable hard disk technology <Western Digital ref>, <Toshiba ref>, <Iomega ref> indicate that the transport vulnerability has been reduced.<proposed footnote here>
- Note: The third manufacturer reference cited in this sentence states that the 2010 industry average transport shock tolerance specification is drop-testing at a height of 36 inches (51 inches ÷ 140%) onto industrial carpeting. That contrasts with "You can do everything right with your drive, but drop it on a hard floor [emphasis added] as you pull it out of the safety deposit box, and like that, you’re off to the recovery service", which is the potential transport vulnerability in the PCWorld reference cited by the preceding sentence.>
The footnote is arcane & confusing, excessively detailed, borderline OR and Synthesis, and does not further illuminate the text. The footnote is incoherent to anyone who doesn't delve into the references; and, anyone who does delve into them will find the information right at hand. The existing, unadorned references simply, and directly, support the article text, and do not need to be further interpreted, reconciled or explained by this note, or by any other.
These concerns are substantially the same as those I expressed to a disinterested editor in a recent Third Opinion review on a similar issue at the same article, see Talk:Backup#Third_opinion, which resulted in removal of the extraneous text. JohnInDC (talk) 20:57, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Talk:Backup#Third opinion discussion
I have revised the underlying paragraph to more accurately capture what the refs say, and short-circuit the whole footnote problem by eliminating the supposed conflict that the footnote was intended to address. I've set out my reasoning on the article Talk page. JohnInDC (talk) 18:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- IMHO the real problem with this paragraph is that JohnInDC rewrote a sentence in it on "17:54, 26 July 2018", and now complains that the footnote in the rewritten sentence would be "arcane & confusing, excessively detailed, borderline OR and Synthesis, and does not further illuminate the text. The footnote is incoherent to anyone who doesn't delve into the references; and, anyone who does delve into them will find the information right at hand. The existing, unadorned references simply, and directly, support the article text, and do not need to be further interpreted, reconciled or explained by this note, or by any other."
- The sentence used to say (omitting refs) "However, as the technology of ramp loading and the accelerometer (sometimes termed a "shock sensor") has migrated over the last few years from laptop computers down to individual hard disks, three manufacturers' descriptions of their portable hard disk technology indicate that the transport vulnerability has been reduced." After JohnInDC's rewrite, it now says "To ameliorate this concern, several manufacturers produce portable drives employing ramp loading and accelerometer technology (sometimes termed a "shock sensor"), which exceed industry averages in drop tests." The words "which exceed industry averages in drop tests" aren't mine—they're his.
- The second sentence in the first section in the Iomega article says "The baseline shock tolerance specification for Drop Shock Technology requires that sampled drives subjected to drop testing must be intact and working after a non-operating shock of 900G @ 1ms and an operating shock of 250G @ 2ms – the technical equivalent of a 36 inch drop." That 36 inch drop is exactly the 2010 industry average I calculated from the first two sentences in the second paragraph of the second section of the Iomega article (the "drop testing at a height of 51 inches" in that same paragraph is for their "semi-rugged" Drop Guard Technology that "features special internal cushioning that protects the hard drive inside the case, increasing its shock resistance"). The HGST 2007 white paper claims "1,000 Gs of non-operating shock.", vs. the 2010 industry-average "non-operating shock of 900G @ 1ms" for Iomega Drop Shock Technology, but that's only 11% over the industry average—a difference that would be hardly worth mentioning even if it didn't constitute "buying advice".
- Thinking it over, I think the original fault was mine for imprecise wording of the sentence. I should have written something like "... the transport vulnerability has been reduced as other manufacturers adopted these mid-1990s-to-2000 inventions"—as the HGST ref clearly says they have. With this alteration, the purpose of my proposed footnote becomes clear; it is to aid the reader in answering an IMHO key question "Will the data on my non-"rugged" portable HDD be safe if I drop it out of my 36-inch-high pocket or purse?" The best answer—but one that will be OR for a WP editor pending a comprehensive reference—seems to be "Yes, if the drop is onto nothing less resilient than an industrial carpet" (per the 2010 Iomega ref) but "Maybe no, if the drop is onto a hard floor" (per the 2016 PCWorld ref cited in the preceding sentence). DovidBenAvraham (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- We should probably conduct further discussion at the Talk page, rather than here, particularly before a volunteer has weighed in. JohnInDC (talk) 10:57, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- The problem with that was that on "17:56, 26 July 2018 (UTC)" you had created a new Talk page section below the "Third opinion (reprise)" sub-section. I've now taken the liberty of deleting that section header, so the volunteer will find our discussion related to the DRN in the sub-section where he/she is going to look. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- There is no problem. I created that new section on purpose. The volunteers here can easily follow the discussion. You and I are the only two people talking, and the new section follows immediately on the prior discussion. I've restored it, and please don't edit others' Talk page contributions. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 16:55, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- DRN volunteers: The new Talk page section JohnInDC has created is here. Please consider that a continuation of "Third opinion (reprise)", which is where I understood all discussion being considered in Dispute Resolution was to take place. JohnInDC, I would take it very ill if this comment is altered in any way without my consent; I would take that as evidence that you were trying to conceal discussion from the volunteers. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 21:40, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, for goodness's sake. Please AGF. Further, as it happens, this particular discussion began about 15 paragraphs above the link you've provided, in the prior section. JohnInDC (talk) 22:37, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
- Please believe that I hated to write my "21:40, 27 July 2018 (UTC)" comment above. But I still don't understand why you inserted a new Talk page section, since my experience filling out the form for this DR included specifying a Talk page section where the volunteer(s) would find the dispute described. I'd simply like the volunteer(s) to see all of my side of that description.
- I'm having trouble finding "... 15 paragraphs above the link you've provided, in the prior section." That prior sub-section would be Talk:Backup#Third opinion (reprise), except that—even counting one-sentence paragraphs—there simply don't appear to be more than 8 paragraphs in that sub-section. Perhaps you meant somewhere in Talk:Backup#Third opinion; I would say "... this particular discussion began ..." with my "05:42, 17 July 2018 (UTC)" comment on the Talk page. (BTW, IMHO it's best to specify locations on Talk pages with a comment time-date in quotes; the surrounding quotes make it easy to plug the time-date into a Web browser's Find box.) That would be consistent with your idea that this dispute is simply a continuation of the one in the Third Opinion.
- In a broad sense, your idea is correct. I'm still trying to solve the problem posed in the third sentence of the last paragraph of my "06:30, 27 July 2018 (UTC)" comment above. (To understand the problem's significance, look at this video—with the sound turned down—that shows the comparative sizes of "ruggedized" and non-"ruggedized" portable HDDs. You'd never be able to fit a "ruggedized" HDD into your pocket or purse.) The fact that I'm trying to solve it is a result of what may be my atypical reason for being a Wikipedia editor; I want to, consistent with avoiding OR or Synthesis, help readers to find answers to questions about current software and hardware. I hurt me to have a backup administrator say, as one did a couple of months ago on the Retrospect Forums, "I can see that a Wiki article about Retrospect might be of use for others, although I personally never trust information that comes from a Wiki article and I certainly would not use that info for something as mission-critical as backups." On the other hand, it made me feel good that my friend was able to answer, on those same Forums, an administrator's question about the cost of using Retrospect's cloud backup facility by pointing him/her to the last paragraph of the Amazon Glacier#Cost section. An average 600 people a day view the Backup article; although some of them are "fight fans", most of them simply want useful information. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Volunteer comment: Who requested the WP:3O, and what was the result of it? I need an editor to the dispute to answer before I continue. Xavexgoem (talk) 04:45, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Here is the 3O request, by DovidBenAvraham, concerning pull quotes embedded in certain refs. The result was, “The quotes do not add value to the reader”. See, a little below this link. DBA should speak for himself, but I understand that he considers the current disagreement about the utility of a footnote to raise different issues, or perhaps simply that the outcome should be different. As for me, I believe the original 3O presented the same concerns, and laid the issues to rest. JohnInDC (talk) 12:09, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Talk page discussion about the footnote begins with the paragraph beginning “My compromise solution”, if you’d care to search for the text. JohnInDC (talk) 12:20, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- So it was in fact up in Talk:Backup#Third opinion, which is two sub-sections above Talk:Backup#Storage_media_– hard drives. Please consider using quoted time-dates to refer to comments in the future. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 13:15, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Time stamp text varies according to time zone and user preference, and is hard to search. (E.g., your 24 hour, GMT "05:42, 17 July 2018" is my 12 hour, EDT "1:42 am, 17 July 2018".) Plus Talk page comments are rarely in straight chron order, so you can't just scroll up or down to the right place. I find short text snippets easier in identifying comments, plus it can sometimes be used to provide a tiny bit of context. JohnInDC (talk) 14:07, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, I had no idea that time stamp text was a user preference. In fact I don't think I've looked at user preferences since 2015. I thought that UTC on WP was a consequence of our belonging to that out-of-date military alliance, or our losing the war to Britain in 1783. The worst part of this lack of knowledge is that I've been wrapping time stamp text in quotes but leaving out "(UTC)". DovidBenAvraham (talk) 16:07, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- You're welcome, glad I could help. JohnInDC (talk) 18:38, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- I requested it (sorry for not answering immediately; it was nearly 1 a.m. here in New York City). The result of the WP:3O is described on the article's Talk page starting with barkeep49's "03:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)" comment. Basically I tried for another two weeks to put a revised set of quotes into the refs that JohnInDC would accept. Then, as described in the article's Talk page in my "05:42, 17 July 2018 (UTC)" comment, I switched to adding a footnote at the end of the article sentence that cites the 3 refs. JohnInDC hasn't liked either my original or my proposed revised footnote, which is why I have requested Dispute Resolution.
- The dispute is a tricky one, as I described it in my " 06:14, 27 July 2018 (UTC)" Talk page comment (duplicated above at "06:30, 27 July 2018 (UTC)" on this page). It is greatly complicated because JohnInDC insists, in his "10:55, 27 July 2018 (UTC)" Talk page comment, "You misunderstand. I rewrote the sentence to conform to the refs and am happy with it.". I tried to tell JohnInDC, in my "23:32, 27 July 2018 (UTC)" article Talk page comment, that he has fundamentally misunderstood the refs. His response was to be insulted about my mention of "less-intellectually-gifted readers of the paragraph making the same mistakes you did"—which I admit could have been more gently phrased, taking it as a personal attack. IMHO one or more volunteers are going to have to tell either John or me that that person has misunderstood the refs. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 12:11, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you both. I'll take a closer look at this. I hate to be a bear, DovidBenAvraham, but could you please link diffs instead of timestamps in the future? It's a bazillion times easier to keep track of what's going on. Instructions are here. Xavexgoem (talk) 20:13, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Volunteer question - User:Xavexgoem - Are you acting as moderator, or are you only asking questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:36, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Volunteer comment - The discussion above is long and not concise and nearly incomprehensible. Overly long posts do not always clarify the content issues. Please try to be concise so that volunteers know what the issues are. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:36, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think we've sorted this out - see these exchanges. I've asked @DovidBenAvraham: to withdraw the request here, inasmuch as he started the ball rolling. JohnInDC (talk) 15:07, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Okay. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that we've sorted this out, basically by eliminating the footnote in favor of improving the second of the two existing sentences—and adding a third sentence that highlights the still-existing vulnerabilities of non-"ruggedized" HDDs. Please withdraw the request, and thank you to the volunteers for their efforts. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 03:06, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
- Excellent! I am closing the case. Xavexgoem (talk) 03:17, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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