Endorse regretfullyAllow recreation. We need a good reason to delete a redirect, especially for a word that appears in the dictionary, and no such reason was provided by the Delete !voters on that RfD. But the closing admin correctly read the consensus. In a WP search for 'phone, the "Telephone" result doesn't even appear in the top 200 results. This was a correct, but unfortunate closure that should now be amended. Owen×☎ 18:17, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Allow recreation for how long its been since the RfD Mach61 18:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to formally review a 17 year old XFD. Just recreate it and if someone has an issue, a new discussion can happen. StarMississippi 00:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of this nomination is that it's per WP:DRVPURPOSE #3, as otherwise a recreation of this redirect would potentially be liable to be G4ed. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 00:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You may very well be correct, but I've seen that applied to maybe 17 month old discussions. Nothing of this vintage. No sane patroller is going to scream G4 at a 2007-era discussion. Oh wait, don't we have a 20 year old one here now? Oops StarMississippi 02:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn [Send to RfD after Stifle's comment]. The participants made the wrong arguments based on a wrong understanding of the facts and the outcome is wrong. The RfD should be voided leading to undeletion. It doesn't matter how old it is.—Alalch E. 12:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sending a redlink to RfD is silly. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They (obviously) mean to restore the redirect and procedurally nominate it at RFD. Like, y'know, it used to be standard practice for anything restored by DRV and VFU before it. —Cryptic 01:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Allow recreation as a plausible redirect. The closer correctly interpreted consensus, but the nomination was flawed. FrankAnchor 13:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Question - Are we being asked to overturn a 17-year-old close, or to allow recreation? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Allow Recreation subject to a new RFD. There has to be a time limit on deletions of redirects. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted. It would be an unlikely/implausible redirect; nobody types that into search. Stifle (talk) 07:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Allow recreation. In my opinion, the existence of wikt:'phone demonstrates the plausibility of this as a redirect. No need to send directly to RfD from deletion review, as any editor who wishes to start an RfD may do so. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 10:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Waste of time nomination. Do not bring old things to DRV without a reason, such as an active disagreement, a warning, SALT, etc. Boldly create if you’re sure, anyone can RfD it, or if you’re not sure, find something else to do. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:59, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This recreated redirect would be liable to G4, and, for example, Stifle (who does not support its retention) could simply G4 it, uncontestably. —Alalch E. 10:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And that would be the proper time to bring this to DRV. —Cryptic 11:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. This preemptive DRV serves to waste volunteer time now because someone might hypothetically waste volunteer time.
Things should not be brought to DRV just because something was done wrong, there should be an actual problem to fix. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I agree with that. —Alalch E. 15:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Ami Dror – Was headed to an endorse close, and nom is OK with the close. Issues around AfD participation and best practices can be hashed out elsewhere StarMississippi 12:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
This is a extremely contentious Afd that was closed by the admin with a simple keep as though they were closing an Afd opened by mistake. None of the problem inherent in the Afd discussion were addresed. From the canvassing at the beginning, to the the whole course of the keep !votes being based on false premises, hand-waving and wilful (supposed) ignorance of policy, particularly ignorance of the WP:O Note d, i.e. the idea that interviews can prove a person notable. These arguments have been given false creedence that has lead to a false keep !vote. It should have been delete, or at the worst no consensus. Now we have been left with a group that thinks its ok to use interviews to prove notability. I think the whole thing feels staged. scope_creepTalk 13:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. I agree with the appellant that the closing statement could have benefited from at least a brief closing rationale. I also agree that there was plenty of obvious canvassing, a litany of meritless "Keep" votes (not "!votes"), and incorrect categorization of sources as independent. However, even when you discard all those votes, we're still left with no consensus to delete. Doczilla is an experienced admin, and I'm sure he gave those canvassed, ILIKEIT-type votes the weight they deserve, namely, zero. Had he added a terse explanation of his close, it would be obvious. In my read of that AfD, the Delete views indeed carry more weight than the Keeps, but not overwhelmingly so. Is it really worth our while here to overturn this to a "No consensus", with the only practical effect being an earlier potential renomination? Unlike the appellant, I don't believe this close sets a precedent about the use of interviews as proof of notability. Most of those Keeps have no interest in our P&G, and are merely citing whatever they believe will get their pet page kept. Owen×☎ 14:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vacate and relist or alternatively overturn to no consensus and allow immediate renomination (involved), as per my comment in the AfD I found the vast majority of the keep votes/!votes to be just about worthless with regards to our P&G's (with one or two exceptions). I believe that the current closes available would be 'no consensus' or 'delete', but I also believe an extra 7 days may have led to an actual consensus (given the delete !votes came late). Alternatively, explicitly allowing immediate renomination (with a 'clean' restart) may also be beneficial to finding a true P&G-based consensus either way. I don't think this should have been closed as 'keep', and in the absence of an extended closing statement, I cannot see how that conclusion was reached. Daniel (talk) 20:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support the nom, User:Scope creep, but really, he should be advocating a single outcome. Reading through the AfD, I cannot find two sources that meeting the GNG. It’s unfortunate that someone is saying interviews don’t meet WP:SECONDARY, because that is not true. The problem with whether the sources are independent. Content sourced from the subject via interview of the subject con at be independent of the subject.
I’m leaning to “Overturn (to no consensus) and allow standard WP:RENOM in two months”. I don’t see a case for unusual urgency in solving this one. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:47, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm involved, but I would have loved some sort of statement by Doczilla regarding the close, either in the close or on their talk page. I don't care what happens here, but the close does need a good explanation, which could have been provided with some talk page patience. SportingFlyerT·C 22:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. I closed this after one week when there were no delete votes. This was undone on the basis that it was a controversial close and required an admin. All I see is the nom badgering and threatening people with ANI in a lost and hopeless cause. So we're supposed to overturn this to no consensus and give "super weight" to the few delete votes? I don't agree. The closer could have given a few words of explanation especially given the nom has fought too hard here. But the close is correct. Desertarun (talk) 11:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at your close, and can find no good reason to criticize. scope_creep does not make himself look good on your user_talk page. I long observe that terse nominations often result in trainwrecks. scope_creep should follow advice at WP:RENOM. It's not enough to be right, you have to get people to agree with you. "A large number of references are terrible" is not convincing. For an article that looks good, the flipside of WP:THREE applies. The nominator should make the case that the best three sources are not good enough. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Endorse. This was by no means an extremely contentious Afd, and only gave the appearance of being contentious because Scope Creep forced their view on others by commenting 24(!) times (excluding the nom and stricken comments) throughout the discussion. Even discounting sock and WP:PERX votes, there is clearly not consensus to delete and little indication such consensus would form. My endorse !vote is only "weak" due toThere was a late, well-reasoned delete !vote by Daniel (but not the other late delete vote, which is a glorified PERX). Relisting wouldcould be viable option to allow time to discuss this !vote, but my first preference is to endorse the keep close. FrankAnchor 12:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. - From this vantage point, it is obvious that general notability has been met. The level of scrutiny exhibited towards this specific article both here and on the previous Afd discussions, the underlying motives behind the incessant WP:BADGERING, by members of this forum, which are transparent in previous discussions, and the obsessiveness in which actions are continually being taken, only make the importance of this article that much clearer to me. --Omer Toledano (talk) 17:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Endorse, or Relist, as discussed below - My reading of the participation is that, until 24 hours before closing, there was one policy-based Delete !vote, by the nominator/appellant, two policy-based Keep !votes, by North8000 and Longhornsg, and 86 Keep !votes of uncertain quality that may have just been I Like It, and 2 Keep !votes from editors who were not Extended-Confirmed. At the end, there was one more policy-and-guideline based Delete and one more Delete that I consider of uncertain quality. So, at the close, there were two good-quality Keep !votes, two good-quality Delete !votes, 8 questionable Keeps, and one uncertain Delete. The closer was using reasonable judgment in giving some weight to the questionable Keeps and closing to Keep. Even if the closer had ignored all of the questionable Keeps, the result would have been No Consensus. There is no way that a closer could have twisted this to a Delete. Keep is a valid conclusion by the closer.
The closer should have made some statement concerning weighing the various comments, and addressing the nominator's concerns. DRV doesn't overturn a valid close simply because it was inadequately explained.
The arguments by the nominator/appellant are that the sources are garbage. Some of the sources are garbage. With 58 sources of varying quality, the burden should be on the nominator to provide a source analysis demonstrating that there are not threeindependent sources that provide significant coverage.
My own opinion, without having assessed the sources, is that it is in the interests of the readers for the English Wikipedia to have an article about the subject. The Ignore All Rules approach would be to say that it is in the interests of the reader for the encyclopedia to have an article on the subject. However, in my opinion, this is a situation where the rules can be applied carefully for the interests of the reader of the encyclopedia, by source assessment.
If the AFD is relisted, the purpose of the relist should be to give the nominator time to provide a source analysis showing that the sources are garbage. Other editors can provide source analyses showing that there are at least threeindependent sources that provide significant coverage.
It is true that assessing 58 sources will be work for the nominator/appellant. The burden of proving that all of the sources are garbage should be on the nominator. Most of the sources probably are garbage, and some of them probably are good sources.
Either leave the close standing, or give the appellant a week to show that all of the sources are garbage.
@Robert McClenon: I'm not doing that. It is waste of time, like Afd. You seem to have taken a bullet list from somewhere without reading Afd. A source analysis was done. There is not 1 secondary source in that whole WP:BLP. Not one. scope_creepTalk 08:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. With so many Keep votes there is little incentive to give lengthy thoughtful keep votes. I believe some of those weak/PERX votes would convert into something stronger in another AFD. Desertarun (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Two of the Keep votes were from editors who were not Extended-Confirmed, and so should have been stricken as excluded under Palestine-Israel restrictions. The nominator would have presented a less bad case if they had raised this issue, which is clear, instead of or in addition to yelling "canvassing". That leaves 6 Keeps of arguable quality, and the close is still plausible. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse 1) Doczilla rarely if ever provides statements when closing AfDs; this is not a new phenomenon and heretofore not a particular problem. 2) The NAC should have been allowed to stand... "I wanted to add a vote" isn't a good reason to revert a close, and yes, a NAC closure after the initial relist was just fine in the absence of actual votes against the emerging consensus. 3) Interviews are not inherently non-independent. Good interviews from reputable journalists do their own fact checking, such that the subject's words aren't accepted uncritically and unrebutted. The policy summary that says "Interviews aren't independent" is a horrible and inappropriate oversimplification. Jclemens (talk) 21:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DRV doesn't overturn a valid close simply because it was inadequately explained
DRV has to be able to overturn due to inadequate explanation, or there is no requirement on closers to provide adequate explanation. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:56, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reclose or relist Step by step:
The discussion was bad. The keep !votes seemed to be canvased and the main delete contributor was way over the top (more than half of all the words in the AfD perhaps?).
The close was bad. A discussion with all the issues that one had needs a clearly explained close. As Robert notes, some (2?) of the keep !votes shouldn't have been counted. Were they? No clue, the closer gave us no idea. Was canvasing relevant? No idea? Strength of arguments? Again, no idea.
Keeping this is probably the right thing I don't have a horse in this race, but it seems very clear to me that this person is notable. Plenty of independent coverage. Is THREE met? Maybe not, but the weight of all the sources, many independent and reliable, is enough to get us well past WP:N. And that's the bar.
I lean toward a WP:FISH for Scope creep (at the least learn to be more concise, but if you find yourself that invested in an AfD you need to walk away) and Doczilla (don't close continuous AfDs if you aren't willing to put in the time to explain what you're doing) and either a reclose or relist. Hobit (talk) 04:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I won't be doing that but your absolutely right. I was too close to it and shouldn't have been done it. Its impossible to get these trash article deleted now on Wikipedia. It cannot be done and everybody knows it and the reason Afd is failing. I'm tired of trying to fight battles that can't be won. The whole Afd system is broken and has been for a very long while and the whole thing feels like a group failure. No more Afd's for me. This can closed. I've no interest in it. scope_creepTalk 08:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, this isn't a trash article. There is a ton of coverage and the article is written fairly well. Is it over our inclusion bar? I'd say yes, you'd say no. AfD isn't failing--it's doing it's job and mostly (mostly) doing it well. The drop in participation is painful. This particular AfD is broken. And the big problem was that enough folks outside of the PI conflict didn't get involved. That's how to address AfDs with the issues we have here--lots of dispassionate outside eyes. And the drop in participation does make that more difficult. Hobit (talk) 12:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
