Wikipedia:Deletion review/Active

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

1.	Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~
2.	Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page: {{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.	For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 May 23}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.
4.	Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion: If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 23}}</noinclude> If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 23|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

• Endorse the original closing decision; or
• Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
• List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
• Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
• Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
• Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

• *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
• *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
• *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
• *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

• If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
• If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

• Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
• Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
• Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
• Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

Active discussions

22 May 2024

Category:Baseball players from Monterrey

Category:Baseball players from Monterrey (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

This category was deleted for reasons I can't understand (and with no debate discussion at all) because dividing occupations up - particularly athletes - by populated is something normal. Request recreation. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 January 8#Category:Professional wrestlers from Monterrey nine years ago we decided (via a small but not atypical presentation) that city-level per-sport sportspeople categories were too small to be useful in this case. I've no sense for whether that rationale still applies, not being a categories specialist myself. Jclemens (talk) 14:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  For smaller cities certainly. But Monterrey is not a small city. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Again, not a category expert, but if it were re-created and populated, how many notable individuals would be covered? Jclemens (talk) 18:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• It's a very old, poorly attended CfD, but my sense is that it would still be an WP:OVERCAT. SportingFlyer T·C 18:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  @SportingFlyer, there are at least 300 "Baseball players from *city*" categories and similar number for footballers, basketball players and so on... so deleting this particular one is rather strange. In fact, I was quite surprised there WASN'T a category for a major city where baseball is a popular sport. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

21 May 2024

Connecteam

Connecteam (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I didn't particularly want to bring this here, since procedurally the close is sound. The AFD was left listed for the full 168 hours (and 9 minutes), and I'm sure, were I inclined to speculate, I could come up with a way a reasonable admin closer could have closed the discussion the same way. There were some last minute comments, but not being a stale discussion ordinarily would certainly not be grounds for an overturn or relist. My mistake for not nomming it on a weekend.

That said, I believe the discussion I had with the closer patently does not meet the standards set out by WP:ADMINACCT, which non-administrator closers are also expected to adhere to. I won't tell you more than that I followed the rules and used the arguments raised in the discussion. is clearly not in any way, shape or form a justification, in my admittedly biased opinion. Additionally, while it is not the role of the closer (nor this review) to remedy a defective discussion, I believe (again, admitting my strong bias) any administrator exercising reasonable judgement would at least note the fact that a self-published book, as added by 扱. し. 侍. would not be considered a reliable source, and state whether they relied on that accordingly, if not instead relisted or left their own comment. That one of the others added a source that prominently displayed "Marketing Content" (תוכן שיווקי) at the top near the byline, is perhaps beyond the scope of a reasonable closer, applying an ordinary degree of scrutiny.

In my opinion, at minimum, even if the result is endorsed, this should be re-closed by an uninvolved administrator in their individual capacity, and the closer advised not to do so in future. I am instead seeking a relist, or leave for an immediate renomination. Alpha3031 (t • c) 11:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Here we are. My closure was not based on the book or the Marker source, as the nominator might think, but on a deep coverage provided by other reliable sources (including VentureBeat, Forbes staff, Globes, etc.) which were added during the discussion. I don't see a big issue in closing the discussion by the administrator as the nominator is biased and for some reason always mentions the weakest sources on the page. WP:BEFORE is a good rule and it must be followed. Not long ago, I nominated a page without a thorough review of sources and I was ashamed by the community. So, I was super attentive and skeptical in evaluating the sources of the page. BoraVoro (talk) 13:01, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

removed from the page the self-published book and the Marker paid placement source (I didn't count on them while closing the discussion anyway). BoraVoro (talk) 13:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

You are not required to analyse the sources, as the closer. You are, however, required to furnish an explanation of your process, as requested, and as you have done so now. Alpha3031 (t • c) 13:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I see your point. As I mentioned before, I followed the discussion and based my decision on it. The arguments seemed valid, but I did look at and analyze the sources to determine if they are reliable, though I was not required to do so. BoraVoro (talk) 14:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. I'm happy to withdraw at this point, and have this closed per Owen's suggestion, provided you take to heart the feedback provided (which it appears you have) I think the explanation you provided here is meets the required standard, and if you chose to close XfDs again after a bit more experience, would be the type of thing we would look for, with a bit more back and forth to hash out the details, for example, on the appropriate level of scrutiny. Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alpha3031 thank you so much! I completely agree with you and please accept my apologies for my unprofessional response on my talk page. BoraVoro (talk) 05:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Allow early renomination. The Keep !votes carry very little weight, which isn't surprising, seeing as they come from inexperienced users. One Keep was made by an account now used primarily for voting on AfDs, with a grand total of 52 edits to their name. The lone "per nom if not A7" Delete was also weak. A competent admin could have discarded all but the nom, and relisted to get more meaningful participation. As it stands, this is essentially little more than a contested PROD. Both the closing rationale and the closer's response above reads very much like a supervote. The closer's job is to weigh consensus among legitimate participants, not carry out their own source analysis.

Conduct aside, I can't fault the NAC for being duped by what superficially appears to be a clear consensus, so I don't think an outright overturn is called for. I also don't want to relist the same AfD, already tainted by weak !votes. A fresh AfD in a month, closed by an admin (or by an experienced, competent NAC, if applicable), is the way to go here. BoraVoro would be well advised to stay away from closing XfDs until they gain more experience, and perhaps just as importantly, learn how to interact with fellow editors. This type of dismissive tone in response to a legitimate query is incompatible with administrative actions. Owen× ☎ 13:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@OwenX thanks! BoraVoro (talk) 13:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Allow early/speedy renomination per OwenX. Relisting this is not going to give the best chance of achieving consensus so a new nomination in a few weeks would absolutely be a better choice, to start afresh so to speak. I also agree with Owen's comments that it was an inappropriate response to the talk page query about XfD by the closer, and support his advice regarding the closer staying away from XfD closes for a while. (While DRV is not a conduct forum, the nature of a response by a closer on a talk page is something that definitely falls within its purview.) Daniel (talk) 22:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your feedback. I have already admitted and apologized for my inappropriate response on my talk page. I hope my actions won't disrupt the Wikipedia community and guidelines anymore, and I will stay away from XfD for a while. It was a good lesson for me. BoraVoro (talk) 05:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

20 May 2024

Shane and Friends

Shane and Friends (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This podcast page definitely deserves to be restored. It was one of the biggest podcasts of the 2010s. How could it possible not meet notability standards? Nokia621 (talk) 18:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy endorse - no policy and guideline based argument has been provided. You could try to make an actual argument based on the availability of coverage in reliable sources.

_signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn Strike bolded !vote by nominator First of all, the original deletion had this argument: "Barely found anything about the podcast. Search results return only passing mentions." If you want to talk about baseless arguments, start there. The podcast was deleted from all major platforms due to a major controversial comments made by Dawson in several episodes. This was discussed by Business Insider, The Evening Standard, The New Zealand Herald and many more. When the podcast did air from 2013 to 2017, it was incredibly popular. USA Today credited him for partially reviving the podcasting genre in 2013. In 2015, iTunes featured the show in their "Best of 2015" podcast list. It is definitely notable enough to be restored and the original deletion (with 3 people deciding) had completely baseless arguments. Nokia621 (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  That all appears to be coverage of Dawson himself primarily. Meanwhile, you seem to be misconstruing a Medium blog with 907 followers [1] for iTunes itself (and we generally don't report on single-vendor listings, WP:SINGLEVENDOR) _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  The Medium blog was copying what iTunes Podcasts put on their page. I'm not misconstruing. Nokia621 (talk) 19:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  1) then why link the Medium source 2) moot per WP:SINGLEVENDOR. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  Because the 2015 Best of iTunes list was in their iTunes app, never on a site. Nokia621 (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  In regards to single vendor, Spotify didn't even have podcasts until 2015, so there's few lists available. iTunes was one of the only providers and Soundcloud doesn't have lists. It was however on the Fullscreen app which is another platform, which he had an exclusive video deal with. Nokia621 (talk) 19:29, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy endorse. The minimally-attended AfD was closed as Redirect in July 2021. Since then, the appellant has been edit-warring, trying to restore the version prior to the AfD. The only reason they finally came here to DRV is that Rosguill correctly indef page-blocked them from that battle zone. Had they come here earlier, or presented new sources on the Talk page, I would have gladly considered a new discussion. But under the unclean hands legal doctrine, I refuse to entertain any petition coming from this disruptive editor relating to this or related pages. Not that they seem capable of mounting an argument better than, "But how can it not be notable?". Owen× ☎ 19:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  You're factually incorrect. I had started this deletion review before he indefinitely page-blocked me. You can literally check the UTC timing. Also, you left this comment 1 minute after I gave a long explanation of why it is notable. So instead of insulting by calling me incapable of mounting arguments, why don't you fact-check your own lies? Nokia621 (talk) 19:08, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  No, Owen is correct about the timing. As you should know, and can be seen from your block log, you were blocked at 09:56, 20 May 2024 EDT. You opened this DRV at 15:02, 20 May 2024 EDT. I later corrected the block, which I had initially intended to be indefinite but was instead implemented as 24-hours (which would be silly, for an edit war spanning over 3 years). Arguing that the block post-dates your actions here is pretty transparent wikilawyering. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for admitting you did a temporary ban at first. Once again confirming that Owen was lying about this debate starting after being "indef page-blocked" (his words). How am I supposed to read your mind and know the 24 hour ban was an initial "mistake"? No offense, but you're gaslighting me to the max. And considering I don't read your mind, please don't read my mind saying my actions are "transparent", because you are way off-base. Nokia621 (talk) 19:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Yet another DRV appellant who did not even bother discussing with the closer (me) before rushing to file here. I'm also going to speedy endorse (as closer) per Owen and Rosguill. Daniel (talk) 22:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. Good close. No deletion has occurred, so unless you are challenging the close, this is out of scope of DRV. If you want to revisit the matter, essentially wanting to re-WP:SPINOUT the podcast, propose it and seek consensus on the talk page of the redirect target. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse OP hasn't said anything policy-based and seems unlikely to do so. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse, except that this doesn't allege any error by the closer. Either Redirect or Relist would have been valid closes, and in 2021 a case could be made for overturning the Redirect to Relist. But, as per OwenX, the appellant has been edit-warring since then, and has passed up any chance to ask for a Relist.
  • • DRV is not AFD Round 2, but the sources are garbage, so that the article should not have been Kept.
    • The redirect has not been locked. An editor in good standing may submit a draft with good sources for review to Articles for Creation. The appellant is not an editor in good standing with respect to this title.
    • DRV is a content forum, but the appellant is engaging in personal attacks, for which a real block may be in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  User:Robert McClenon, regarding your 2nd dot point, it is irresponsible to advocate for any editor to create content forks in draftspace. This is not productive, much more likely will be a waste of time for all involved, and as with all content forking, it creates attribution hazards.

  Content on the Shane and Friends podcast is located at Shane Dawson, and per consensus evident in the AfD, that’s where it belongs. If new good sources are found, they should be added to Shane Dawson, and then, if a WP:SPINOUT is warranted, it should be proposed at Talk:Shane Dawson. Only then fork to draftspace if that’s the unlikely consensus on Talk:Shane Dawson. Do not just fork to draftspace alone and in silence. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  User:SmokeyJoe - I have reread the guideline on content forks, and I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. I have requested opinions at Village Pump (policy). I don't think that a draft and content that has been replaced by a redirect are pages of the same type, but we shall see what other editors think. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Draft Content Fork Question SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. No deletion to review, and spinning a page back out after a redirect does not need to come here; it can just be taken forward by building a consensus at the article talk page. Stifle (talk) 08:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Category:Estonian numismatists

Category:Estonian numismatists (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This was closed as "merge all" but there was no actual consensus to merge all (as opposed to merging only the ones that still have one member). Discussion with the closer at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Working has failed to resolve matters. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse I would have closed it the same way, to be honest. SportingFlyer T·C 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• The discussion is at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Working/Archive 30#NAC requests 22–30 April 2024 for anyone interested.
  Honestly, looking at this again, there wasn't much in the way of arguments there, so I'd understand if this was overturned to no consensus for all, not just the >1 member categories. — Qwerfjkltalk 13:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Category:Roman villas in Germany (closed)

Category:Roman villas in Germany – Close reverted by closer and debate reopened, to be reclosed by another editor or administrator. Daniel (talk) 22:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Category:Roman villas in Germany (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore) This was closed as "merge" but there was no actual consensus to merge. Neither side provided any clear guidelines to back up their position, and the numbers were equal. This should have been a "no consensus" * Pppery * it has begun... 16:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC) Pppery, for this one, the keep !votes referred (implicitly) to the deprecated WP:SMALLCAT guideline. The nom referred to Wikipedia:Categorization by saying it's not useful for navigation, which I felt was reasonable enough. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC) "Useful for navigation" seems like a wholly subjective term to me, not a basis in which one can declare one side or the other right. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC) Pppery, yes. This matter comes up fairly frequently at CfD; it would be nice to have some community consensus. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC) It would indeed be nice to have such community consensus. But until that happens, would you be willing to revert your close and relist the CfD, so we can speedily close this DRV? Owen× ☎ 18:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC) OwenX, I don't see how relisting will help here, that's just kicking the can down the road. A no consensus closure, I could agree to. — Qwerfjkltalk 13:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC) A different can down a different road. Reverting your own close will allow an admin to close it in a way that better reflects consensus, or let it run for more views. You're not compelled to self-revert, of course. But it looks like this DRV is headed that way anyway, so the dignified thing to do would be to allow an early close. Owen× ☎ 13:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Overturn, bad close. Consensus was to Keep. Insufficient rational, with User:Smasongarrison’s “for now” and “can be recreated” rendering his her !vote very weak, begging the question of why is she creating this busywork. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC) Please don't misgender me. Mason (talk) 23:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC) My apologies. I originally misidentified you, and became befuddled. My advice for nominators is that they should make a strong case in starting an XfD discussion. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:01, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Knowing SmokeyJoe, this would have been a total accident, and I'm sure it will be fixed once seen (ping @SmokeyJoe:) so we can focus on the review itself. Daniel (talk) 23:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC) Regardless, I don't see the point of calling me out for this argument. There is an entire essay on this WP:Merge for now.Mason (talk) 23:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC) Thanks for the link to the essay. I had never seen it before. I participated in many CfDs long ago, and I think that it suffers from excessive fiddling, busywork, and that “for now” fits that impression. I suggest that you change “for now” to “until when”. Give your audience something objective to respond to. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC) SmokeyJoe, it's until there's enough articles to populate the category, which may well be never. — Qwerfjkltalk 13:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Overturn per Pppery. I will note that there's absolutely no reason to call out the nominator for this one, there just wasn't consensus. SportingFlyer T·C 03:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC) I think it proper to call out weak nominations. Weak nominations often lead to trainwrecks, even if there’s a good underlying case. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC) The nomination was fine at the time it was made. The problem was the closure that didn't reflect consensus, not the nomination itself. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Although I'm clearly biased as the one called out, @SmokeyJoe, I think there were more constructive ways to say that the nomination could have been more compelling. However, I think that you made your argument less compelling by conflating two issues and implying that my efforts were pointless busywork. None of which was related to the closing itself.Mason (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC) I don’t think “for now” conveys confidence. I feel it conveys hesitation. I had no idea that it was a term-of-art. I have raised my thought at Wikipedia talk:Merge for now#For now. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Interesting. Your perspective is one that I hadn't considered. So I appreciate it. I was not aware that perceptions of confidence or hesitation were things to be considered in a CFD. Or that acknowledging that the facts may change is a bad thing. I think it merely acknowledges that this situation for the category could change and that the the nominator is not opposed to revisiting the facts. Mason (talk) 20:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC) @SportingFlyer, @SmokeyJoe, @Pppery, @OwenX, @Smasongarrison, @Daniel, would you all be okay with me changing my closure to no consensus, and then starting an RfC on the matter? — Qwerfjkltalk 13:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC) There's at least one valid opinion in this DRV to overturn to Keep, so we can't just short-circuit the process unless SmokeyJoe changes their mind or this turns into a WP:SNOW situation. I appreciate you trying to build consensus here and close this sooner, but the best way to do that would be to revert your own close, and let an admin re-close or relist. There's no loss of face in taking your name off that CfD. On the contrary: the ability to admit one's mistake and promptly correct it is highly valued, and often comes up on the "Support" side at RfAs. As for an RfC, you are welcome to start one at any time. Owen× ☎ 14:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC) “No consensus” is certainly defensible. An immediate RfC, no. SmokeyJoe (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Personally, I'm fine with non consensus, and agree with Owen that this reverting the close might be easier. I'm not sure what an RfC would do because we had one relatively recently one that ended in a snow for not reinstating small cat. Mason (talk) 22:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Smasongarrison, can you link to the RfC? I must have missed it. — Qwerfjkltalk 12:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC) I'll try to dig it up; my recollection was that @Thinker78 made it. Mason (talk) 19:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC) I've reverted my closure, per all the comments above. — Qwerfjkltalk 12:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Thank you. Owen× ☎ 14:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Is there some reason I shouldn't close this as no consensus now? Or have I become too heavily WP:INVOLVED to do so? The problem with CfD is that for a very long time there have been very few active admin closers so most discussions are closed by non-admins, and the discussion is now in limbo since the bot that processes old discussions doesn't deal with new discussions from months in the past being reopened. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC) No objection from me. Owen× ☎ 17:29, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Pppery, I don't think expressing an opinion on my closure should disqualify you from closing it yourself; I, at least, have no problems with it. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

19 May 2024

1996 Abakan Ilyushin Il-76 crash

1996 Abakan Ilyushin Il-76 crash (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Whilst not a contentious topic, I believe that the the non-admin closer closed the discussion with insufficient evidence and rationale. At first, the closer did not provide a rationale and upon asking for one [2], they stated "The noms contention that this was a "run of the mill event" is not accepted" [3]. Upon inquiring even further pointing out that I had cited multiple policy-based guidelines, they simply stated that they had nothing to else add. Whilst there were no votes supporting a delete, I believe that, either, at the very least, the discussion be relisted to provide a clearer consensus and be closed by a more experienced editor or admin, or the result be overturned as I believe that the closer did not correctly interpret the results. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 10:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse There is unanimous consensus to keep. Skyshiftertalk 10:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Per WP:CLOSEAFD, Consensus is not based on a tally of votes, but on reasonable, logical, policy-based arguments. The strength of the arguments given depends more than the number of votes cast on either side. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 10:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I closed this. There were no delete votes in this second AfD nor the first AfD which can be found here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/RA-78804. Desertarun (talk) 10:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is slightly misleading. Although there weren't any delete votes in the first AfD, there were merge votes. [1] Aviationwikiflight (talk) 10:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  And you ignored the first AfD result and renominated it for deletion again...The first AfD closed less than a month ago. Desertarun (talk) 10:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that that was my fault for renominating it as I didn't know that a renomination should normally take place after six months.

  At the same time, you closing the first discussion as keep with four in favour (including a sock) vs three favouring a merge is contentious as both sides provided strong arguments. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 11:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn This AFD was not properly closed and the rationale for closing is not valid. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Weak endorse. Firstly, renominating within a month of the previous Keep AfD puts the appellant on weak footing here. I believe them when they say it was an honest mistake, but in cases of rapid renomination of a substantially identical page, I think a closer may look at the views in the previous XfD, and determine consensus based on both (or all, if more than two) AfDs combined. This is the natural and most effective way to discourage the type of tendentious litigation we see in some perennially nominated pages. In our case, this would lead to a clear consensus to keep.

Secondly, while no policy forbids it, I find it in poor taste for the same closer, admin or not, to close two subsequent XfDs for the same page, especially in such rapid succession. I'm not saying Desertarun has any bias here, but the appearance of impartiality, and the opportunity to give another closer a chance to examine consensus, are also important. Looking at the second, appealed AfD by itself, I agree with the appellant that the Keep views are exceptionally weak, and do little to refute the nominator's P&G-based concern. I would advise the non-admin closer to either relist such marginal cases, or to leave them for an admin to close. Owen× ☎ 12:51, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Having closed a discussion, there will be a bias to close the same discussion repeated, the same way, especially if there is no substantial new information or arguments that make the second close a reevaluation of the first. This makes the closer INVOLVED forever, or at least for a long time, on similar questions on that topic. If WP:INVOLVED doesn’t say this, it should. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I fully agree, hence the weakness of my endorsement. Owen× ☎ 13:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be nigh on impossible for the admins that close many AfDs per week/month to remember everything they'd previously closed. So changing WP:Involved as mooted would be giving a stick to disgruntled users. Desertarun (talk) 14:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I think I'd remember if I closed an AfD about the same page three weeks earlier. And I do check the prior AfD links to make sure I haven't been involved in any recent ones about that page. Are you claiming you forgot you closed the the previous AfD? If so, admitting your mistake would be the honourable thing to do. "Giving a stick" to editors who find a flaw with the AfD process is exactly what DRV is all about. Owen× ☎ 20:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. There was a clear consensus to keep. Everything was done correctly. The closer stated that the nominator's rationale was "not accepted" (by consensus), which is fine. This is not a BADNAC, as the non-admin closer has not demonstrated a potential conflict of interest, or lack of impartiality, the outcome was not a close call or likely to be controversial, the non-admin has a lot of experience editing Wikipedia generally and has had much previous participation in deletion discussions, and the result did not require action by an administrator. Maybe something about this close could have been better but NACs don't have to be absolutely fabulous to stand, discussions don't have to be fabulous for NAC to be applicable when they're entirely one-sided and can't be closed any other way, and DRV is not about technicalities and not about through-expermentally workshopping could-have-been optimal closing statements and sharing thoughts about what ideal closes by which preferred closers would lead to our satisfaction.—Alalch E. 13:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I don't understand how the given rationale is fine. Saying that the result depended on one of my arguments not being accepted doesn't exactly make sense. In the discussion, I provided multiple policy based guidelines demonstrating why the article should be deleted. But because one of my arguments which was that the event was a run-of-the-mill was not accepted means that my entire argument is now baseless? Aviationwikiflight (talk) 13:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  An AfD is not a formal debate. As consensus, not merely being right is needed to delete, your initiative to delete the article failed through a lack of consensus to do so. Since no one even !voted delete, but multiple people !voted keep, the outcome can not be "no consensus" and can only be "keep". Relisting would have been inappropriate as there was a normal level of participation and the comments were not "lacking arguments based on policy". An argument that the page is not WP:NOT, for example, is not an argument not based in policy in an AfD. An editor can ignore complaints that notability isn't met and say that the page is suitable for inclusion as being within scope, citing NOT, and that is a perfectly policy-based argument to keep. If you cite a guideline that says that events about "common, everyday, ordinary items" may not be notable, and someone says "no, this is not a common, everyday, ordinary item", that's a policy-based argument. Try with a more complete nomination next time that in addition to WP:LASTING also includes WP:INDEPTH and WP:GEOSCOPE, and explain why some sources may be unreliable and why those that are reliable lack in-depth coverage etc., and also explain how WP:GNG isn't met. —Alalch E. 14:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Consensus isn't determined based on the tally votes and by counting heads, but by looking at the strength of arguments and cited recorded consensus and on reasonable, logical, policy-based arguments.

  I too can also ignore the fact that the article was not WP:NOT and cite guidelines that it fails. That too is a policy-based argument against a keep.

  And just saying that the article should be kept because of the number of deaths is not a policy-based argument, nor is saying that an article should be kept because another one has less deaths. Arguing against someone saying that the article is not run-of-the-mill and demonstrating why it is run-of-the-mill is also a policy-based argument. If users do little to refute issues cited regarding policies and guidelines, where does that leave the result? Aviationwikiflight (talk) 14:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  You said, I too can also ignore the fact that the article was not WP:NOT and cite guidelines that it fails. That too is a policy-based argument against a keep. That is correct, and indeed, no one here is claiming that your arguments are not based on policy or guidelines. The fact that no one refuted your argument does not, by itself, automatically turn your legitimate view into a supervote. Here at DRV, we often get appeals that essentially boil down to, "Everyone except me was wrong!". The problem with that is that even if true, that still leaves your opinion alone. We do not delete an article based on a single, contested opinion, except in the clear cases spelled out in WP:CSD. Owen× ☎ 14:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not trying to make my views equal to a supervote but the problem that I have is with the closing rationale since it is implying that the discussion was closed as keep because one of my arguments was not accepted even though there were plenty other of arguments. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 16:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  The AfD was closed as a Keep because no one other than you suggested it not be kept. The fact that you're still arguing about it tells me you aren't clear on our basic principle of WP:CONSENSUS. Owen× ☎ 16:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse per Alalch E. Perfectly fine NAC, entirely obvious consensus. Jclemens (talk) 16:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse per Alalch E. No error in the close - also not a bad NAC. The nomination was based on WP:EVENT and Wikipedia:Run-of-the-mill. While WP:EVENT is a guideline, it is not, by itself an exclusion criteria - as a subject can still pass GNG and merit an article. WP:Run-of-the-mill is an essay. In this case, as GNG was not questioned. While passing GNG does not mean an article must be created, the question in an AFD is whether a stand-alone page should exist. Since the other participants all said that the subject was not an ordinary event (a policy-based argument), keep was the only appropriate outcome. --Enos733 (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse completely normal AfD here, with complete consensus to keep. Furthermore I do not see any particular reason to delete which was ignored by the participants. SportingFlyer T·C 17:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse as the correct reading of consensus to Keep. I would have !voted Keep on account of significant coverage of 23 lives lost, but DRV is not AFD round 3. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. WP:SLAP User:Aviationwikiflight for renominating too soon after an AfD consensus to not delete, and doing so without a better nomination that last time, noting that they !voted in the first AfD and therefore were aware of it. Desertarun (talk · contribs) should not be closing an AfD on the same topic twice, after closing once you are forever WP:INVOLVED in that topic. I would have requested speedy closure at WP:ANRFC, and !voted “speedy close as too soon after the AfD1 consensus to keep”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, but per One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits that do not show bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. if an admin would not have been INVOLVED based on a closure, a non-administrator cannot be presumed to be involved based on performing a NAC as a pseudo-administrative action which should, by virtue of what a NAC is, require less evaluation and opinion formation. Thus, not INVOLVED. Jclemens (talk) 20:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  NAC-ers are especially prone to unconscious bias. They should not repeatedly close AfDs on the same article. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think this is a reasonable opinion to hold. I don't think it's addressed, let alone required, by current policy. Have I missed something? If not, I'd certainly be up for saying INVOLVED should be construed exceptionally broadly for NACs, and would support that. I just don't think it's current P&G. Jclemens (talk) 01:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'm with Jclemens on this. "Forever INVOLVED" seems a bit extreme. Involvement is a function of the depth and nature of interaction, and the time elapsed. We'd be running out of admins very quickly if closing one of the many WP:NSKATE AfDs would instantly and forever disqualify you from touching any of the others. Owen× ☎ 21:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  Forever, is extreme. Three weeks is short. I would have done as I said. If it remains unclosed after a week at ANRFC, and you address the notion of possible repeat bias, that would be ok. I reckon. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• No action I can not go as far as endorsing an WP:INVOLVED NAC, but this is the correct result. There was unanimous consensus (outside the nominator) to keep this article. Frank Anchor 10:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse The appellant has acknowledged their error in renominating so quickly; the next step should be to drop the matter and move on. Also, whether or not it is prohibited by policy, I'm not comfortable with two NACs by the same editor on the same article in such rapid succession. But the close was technically correct. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:16, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I agree, it’s rather odd they’re still fighting to have it deleted even though vast majority have voted to keep it. Alex Hoe (talk) 14:11, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I still stand by my opinion but I accept the result of the AfD. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 14:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse My opinion has not changed since the last two attempted deletion attempts, the value of the cargo plus the high number of fatalities due to accident. Alex Hoe (talk) 12:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

18 May 2024

Paulin Basinga

Paulin Basinga (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I don't believe this closure was appropriate. I provided legitimate points to clarify the raised issues to keep the page, there are as many "Keep" same as "Delete". None of the votes for "delete" replied to the comments. I recommend this AFD be reopened. 12eeWikiUser (talk) 09:53, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy endorse as a bad-faith appeal. The appellant says, there are as many "Keep" same as "Delete". That is an outright lie. Even going by nose count alone, there are two Keeps and four Deletes. We could go into the weakness of those two Keep arguments, but I don't think DRV should entertain dishonest appeals even if they have merit, which this one doesn't. Owen× ☎ 10:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Endorse. Couldn’t have been closed any other way. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse clear consensus to delete. However I do not believe this DRV was made in bad faith. Frank Anchor 17:00, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Do you believe the appellant got mixed up when counting "Keep" and "Delete" !votes? It strains credulity to think this is anything but their attempt to misrepresent facts. Owen× ☎ 17:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  I believe it is most likely the appellant discounted some delete votes for unstated reasons. I don’t agree with that assessment if that is the case. Frank Anchor 17:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse - The only possible closure. There is a strange question about how and whether to Assume Good Faith. Is the appellant misstating the numbers of Keeps and Deletes, or is the appellant unable to count, which is only a competency issue? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) I think we've completely missed here. The close was absolutely correct based on the discussion, but I'm convinced we've deleted an article on a notable topic. I can't see the deleted article, so it's possible it was written promotionally, and some very experienced editors participated at this AfD, so I understand I'm arguing up hill here. Still, I did my own WP:BEFORE search and not only do I not see any promotional sources (the Nigerian ones I've found so far wouldn't count because they're interviews, but he's clearly being interviewed as an expert - and he worked in Nigeria, so it's not surprising that he'd be discussed there), I think he pretty clearly satisfies WP:NPROF with many published articles, many references to those articles in books, and international press coverage (probably routine). AfD is getting a lot more difficult as fewer people participate and we've always had issues with notability outside specific areas, especially with African topics. Perhaps the deleted article's not worth restoring, but I think he's absolutely notable enough to write an article on, so even if this is endorsed I have no problem if someone wants to write a new draft here. SportingFlyer T·C 23:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  If anyone thinks he is notable, request draftication and follow to advice at WP:THREE. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  NPROF requires substantially more citations--by academics in academic RS--of the subject than would be seen for the average professor in their subfield, and for Dr Basinga I believe it is TOOSOON. He had one quite well-cited first-author paper, but NPROF C1 needs several extremely highly-cited papers. FWIW, I ran my Scopus metrics test on ~100 of his senior-research-position coauthors who had 15+ papers (to exclude those who are not in senior researcher/professor positions and thus not comparable for "average professor" purposes):

Total citations: average: 5183, median: 2459, Basinga: 1385; Total papers: 125, 88, 36; h-index: 32, 28, 20; Top papers: #1: 766, 308, 372; #2: 380, 198, 158; #3: 280, 158, 68; #4: 205, 128, 62; #5: 174, 108, 54.

As you can see, Dr Basinga is not well above the average professor in this high-citation-rate field (he publishes alongside the likes of Agnes Binagwaho, Megan B. Murray, and John Owusu Gyapong), so his notability needed to be assessed via GNG and that was also found lacking. In the course of running my test I did come across a few red-linked researchers whom I believe do qualify for pages through C1: Françoise Portaels (19364 citations, h-index 73), Susheela Singh (14609, 60), Janneke van de Wijgert (8715, 50), Sodiomon Sirima (7649, 50), Ayola Akim Adegnika (6833, 44), and Joanna Schellenberg (12180, 62), among others. JoelleJay (talk) 05:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The one time I think WP:NPROF might be satisfied... SportingFlyer T·C 07:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you JoelleJay, I am now satisfied. I apologize for being too desperate for not deleting the page, I am happy to learn about NPROF test I did not know much on it. 12eeWikiUser (talk) 09:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. There was a consensus to delete for lack of notability and promotion.—Alalch E. 11:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

17 May 2024

Elephant population

Elephant population (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

This was speedy deleted out of process. The admin who performed the deletion has defended it at User talk:Pppery#Elephant population with their opinion on the merits of the redirect, and while I disagree with their opinion admins don't have the right to push the delete button because of their opinions but instead by must follow standard deletion procedures. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:07, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn clear mis-application of G6. Not a “technical deletion” in any way, shape, or form. It can be taken to RFD if anyone desires. Frank Anchor 23:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Background - This page was created with the text;

  It was recently confirmed by reliable source(s) that the elephant population has increased dramatically. This source says that the elephant population in Africa has tripled in the last six months and that if the population continues at this rate of increase, in two to five years the earth will be overrun by these giganic mamels. in that case, the source believes that elephant hunting will be legal soon. "it is only a matter of time," says source," Until congress will pass the law for elephant hunting and even promote this dangerous sport. Looks like my stash of ivory wont be illegal for long!" source exclaims with the sparkle of triumph in his eyes.
  
  The Kato institute reports elephant populations have indeed increased despite liberal allegations. In a study by renowned palientologist Howard Berkman it was revealed that in the last 6 months there has been a 600% increase in the rural West African Great White Tusk elephant. For more see http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

As this was clearly nonsense, it was tagged for speedy deletion. The proper procedure at the time would have been to just delete the page. However, there was instead a common (though very much 'out of process') practice of making indefinitely protected redirects, since these had the added 'benefit' of preventing recreation. As such, the page was redirected to Elephant and indefinitely protected "for now". That was clearly always meant to be a temporary solution, but got lost in the shuffle. Eighteen years later I removed the protection and deleted the page. To me, this seems like a standard G6 maintenance issue... finally implementing the proper / intended solution. Further, in the 18 years of its existence, no article on the site ever incorporated this redirect. It simply doesn't make sense to type 'Elephant population' to get to 'Elephant'. Thus, I feel the page should remain deleted... based on both 'benefit' to the encyclopedia AND process. --CBD 00:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Like your earlier claim that "we don't have redirects from <title> <word> to <title>", your implication that "no incoming links from articles" is a reason to delete is simply untrue. Close to two thirds of mainspace redirects have no incoming links, and this argument is explicitly called out at WP:RFD#KEEP #2. —Cryptic 00:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn, and optionally List - Even if this had been done six months after the redirection, it would not have been a non-controversial maintenance deletion. The existence of a concept of non-controversial maintenance implies that there is also controversial maintenance, and this is controversial maintenance, and can be debated at RFD if there is a nomination. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete and list at XfD, which should be immediately done on any reasonable request by and user in good standing. If there is anything to debate, the forum for the debate is XfD. If the allegation is that an admin is repeatedly misusing speedy deletion, that’s another matter. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn The cited text is fictitious and ludicrous, but because it can clearly be understood by a reasonable person to be exactly that... it's not nonsense. But nor does G6 apply. Great candidate for a non-speedy process. Jclemens (talk) 13:37, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Close with no action. What exactly is the remedy sought by the appellant here? I agree that G6 was incorrectly applied. But what do we gain by overturning it? A wiki search for "Elephant population" gives Elephant as the sixth result. This isn't a plausible typo, although after 18 years, it's clearly not a recently created one to fall under R3. Yes, it shouldn't have been summarily deleted out of process, and no, we don't need that redirect back just to be re-deleted at RfD. At most, I'd go for a half-hearted TROUTing of the deleting admin, along with a quiet Thank you for trying to save us the trouble of a pointless XfD, and get back to more important matters. Owen× ☎ 16:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  The remedy sought is it to overturn the deletion, undelete the page, and allow anyone who wishes it nominate it at RfD to do so. I would have thought that was obvious. And I am not convinced this would have been deleted at RfD in the first place. This ends-justify-the-means reasoning is contrary to deletion policy, and you can't IAR around it either per WP:IARUNCOMMON since this logic appears to apply just as well to anything any admin personally thinks would likely be deleted at a deletion discussion, which is a common scenario. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Undelete and list at XfD puts the situation back on the track it should have been on, and provides a clear example to observers, and gives re-education to the admin misapplying G6. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  In Victor Hugo's last novel, Ninety-Three, a sailor risks his life to secure a loose cannon on deck, the cannon that he himself failed to secure earlier. The captain awards him a medal for his bravery, and then proceeds to execute him for dereliction of duty. My question is, must we revive this redirect just to kill it again? The G6 was wrong, and IAR doesn't apply here, but DRV is a content forum, not a disciplinary one. It seems pointless to retrace our steps just to end up where we started, and we're not here to educate anyone. We don't know what a future RfD would decide, but we don't need to leave this for RfD. Policy gives DRV the authority to adjudicate the matter, not just to relist it. Just because a useless redirect has been in place for 18 years is no reason to keep it, and certainly no reason to resurrect it. Owen× ☎ 02:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  DRV is not XfD. The merits of the redirect are out of scope for DRV. The automatic links, tools, logging, etc, are set up to work from XfD. We are only still here because an admin is obstinately sticking by their bad G6. The purpose of this DRV is to establish consensus that the G6 was wrong and the redirect if it must be deleted must go through xfd. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  The authority to delete is spelled out by our deletion policy, not by Twinkle or some template. DRV may overturn an XfD or a speedy to any other outcome. Specifically, it may overturn an incorrect speedy deletion to a consensus Delete. RfD doesn't provide any automatic links; we have all the information we need to decide this here and now, without listing it, and we don't need XFD Participation tool to voice our opinion, nor XFDcloser to carry out the result. I agree with you that CBDunkerson could have--and by this point should have--saved us from continuing this debate by undoing his G6. But he didn't, and now we have the choice between undoing it here and keeping the redir, undoing and sending to RfD, or leaving the page deleted while acknowledging G6 was a mistake. If you don't wish to adjudicate on the redir itself, it's certainly your prerogative to !vote "Overturn and list", but it's also the prerogative of those who don't see the need for the extra wonkery to !vote "Overturn to delete", which is basically no action beyond an implied finger wag at the out-of-process speedy. Owen× ☎ 06:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t wish to adjudicate on the redir itself, not here and now.

  I am curious to see the history behind the redirect. I recall the Stephen Colbert call to edit elephant from around the time, and it might be funny or interesting to read. I considered requesting a temp undeletion, but haven’t because that information has no bearing on my opinion that the G6 was improper and must be reversed. If this goes to RfD, undeleted, I will examine the history before expressing an opinion on whether it is better kept available or hidden from nonadmins.

  I am not sure that is can be justifiably asserted that there is a consensus to delete the history. SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I agree; I, too, see no consensus to delete, sadly. It seems some here are more concerned with Righting Great Wrongs, in this case, teaching that admin a lesson, than they are in giving that page the disposition I believe it deserves. I doubt any participant here would have created Elephant population as a redirect had it not existed, which means that the only reason they're now opting to restore it is that it already existed, and was deleted out of process. I don't believe that's a valid reason to keep--or restore--a page, but it seems I'm in the minority here. Owen× ☎ 13:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. Let’s not say “Righting Great Wrongs”. I see this as filing rough edges in the cogs of deletion policy, in a place and a way that doesn’t stop anything else. G6 misuse diminishes the respect of WP:CSD, and disenfranchises the ordinary community in favour of an admin class in some aspects of the management of the community. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn. The "intended solution" was exactly what was done: removing inappropriate content and turning the page into a redirect, and that was done because it's at least a somewhat plausible redirect; someone thinking that this redirect makes some sense is the precondition to this solution. If it hadn't made at least some sense to someone, the page wouldn't have been redirected but deleted. This is a common reason redirects are created and protection isn't important; current protection practices differing from those xx years ago have nothing to do with the deletion/retention of the redirect. Today this same redirect could be created under the same circumstances, but the page would not be protected.—Alalch E. 23:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• As a non-admin, I can't tell exactly what has happened here. SportingFlyer T·C 04:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Elephant was persistently vandalized in August 2006, apparently at the behest of Stephen Colbert. When that article was protected, it inevitably spilled over into new titles. Since there's some value in this one, it was redirected to Elephant and then protected, and lived happily on for almost eighteen years when CBDunkerson "uncontroversially" deleted it. —Cryptic 05:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

    Overturn In that case, it should be overturned, even though if I agree with the spirit of the deletion. SportingFlyer T·C 22:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn as an out-of-process deletion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn as an improper deletion. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn. A G6 speedy deletion has the express requirement of being non-controversial. The fact that one or more editors have seen fit to raise a challenge here indicates it is not non-controversial and therefore the deletion cannot stand. It may be sent to WP:RFD if anyone is willing to send it there, and I would be minded to support deleting it there. Stifle (talk) 08:03, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Akiko Kitamura

Akiko Kitamura (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I don't believe this closure was appropriate. I provided a legitimate argument for deletion, and this was a PROD that had been removed. None of the votes for "keep" commented on the merits of the article and instead cast aspersions on my work. I recommend this AFD be reopened. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. The AfD ran for a full week, during which not a single participant supported your call for deletion. Whether or not you did a proper WP:BEFORE search is no longer relevant. There was no consensus to delete, and no compelling reason to relist it. I can't fault other editors for being suspicious of your nominations, seeing your poor track record. The ten examples that JTtheOG provided tell a damning story. Go for quality nominations, not for quantity. Owen× ☎ 21:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Weak overturn to no consensus Endorse with no prejudice against immediate re-nomination (citing very low attendance). While there is clearly not anything close to consensus to delete, the keep !votes are attacking the nominator and do nothing to claim the subject is notable. I recommend this option rather than resisting because a potential future AFD can focus on the article rather than the nominator. If Bgsu98 wishes to renominate, I recommend this user take the advice at WP:RENOM and put together a stronger case as to why this particular article should be deleted. Frank Anchor 22:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - In the past six years, there have been three ArbCom cases involving deletion discussions, and in those three cases I have proposed that ArbCom institute discretionary sanctions, now known as contentious topics, for conduct in deletion discussions. ArbCom has evidently considered and not accepted that idea. This is another illustration of behavior in deletion discussions that appears to be disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  To which behavior are you referring? Bgsu98 (Talk) 11:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Weak Endorse - There was no error by the closer. The nomination was properly listed, and at least two editors saw it, and two editors commented, opposing deletion. Relist would have been a valid action. No Consensus would not have been a valid close. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - There should be a Skating list at Deletion Sorting, especially since the appellant is nominating large numbers of figure skaters for deletion. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Y Done. Owen× ☎ 12:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: there are currently 52 open AfDs in the newly created WP:DELSORT/Skating, of which 51 were nominated by Bgsu98, most using a copy-pasted nomination text. The exception was WP:Articles_for_deletion/Nordic_cross_skating, which isn't about a skater, and arguably may not be about skating at all.

Did the appellant believe their chances are better with 51 separate nominations than with one, 51-entry discussion? Either way, DRV, as a second instance forum, may aggregate all 51 into a single merged AfD, for a more meaningful discussion about WP:NSKATE and related guidelines. Leaving all 51, minimally-attended individual AfDs to the luck of who saw the AfD will result in inconsistent outcomes, encouraging more BEFORE-less nominations. Owen× ☎ 13:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse Bad AfD conduct as noted by the participants--too many at once, copy/paste rationale, no or inadequate BEFORE--are all rebuttals to the presumed good faith of the nominations. This is a perfectly fine reason to reject an AfD: if the nominator didn't pay the encyclopedia and community due respect, then no return consideration is necessary. Otherwise, shotgun XFD nominations would be a WP:FAIT unless specifically and carefully rebutted. Jclemens (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse with no prejudice against immediate re-nomination This underlying discussion is not a great example of what a deletion discussion should look like. On one hand, WP:NSKATE, as part of WP:NSPORT, is largely depreciated and I believe should be seen more like WP:OUTCOMES. However, since it still is an SNG, the community still thinks there is value in NSPORT, there is no obvious error in the nominator to nominate individuals who do not meet the criteria in WP:NSKATE. That said, failing the SNG does not mean that a subject must be deleted - as the subject can still merit an article by meeting GNG, and the nominator should review the existing sources. For the subsequent comments in this deletion discussion, there was no attempt to find or provide sources to show that the subject meets GNG. Instead, the points raised were to procedurally keep the article. While quick nominations are usually frowned on by the community, entering them in quick succession is not necessarily a problem, especially if the nominator did their homework prior to the nomination. And, just because other nominated articles in the same sequence may have sources, does not necessarily mean that this nomination was in error. All of this means to me that the close should be seen as a procedural keep and any editor could re-nominate the article. --Enos733 (talk) 15:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse and allow immediate re-nomination the reason to delete was possibly not well thought through, the reasons to keep were procedural and not policy-driven, so it's basically like the discussion didn't happen at all. No problem with a new AfD, and if nominated by the same user, clear evidence of a WP:BEFORE search would be wise. SportingFlyer T·C 04:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse an editor filing ~50 related AfDs in rapid succession should expect to face criticism for flooding the process. The proper response is to learn from the experience and do better next time. This is not that. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
• Advice in general, if the nom cannot be grouped (and I think in this case they could not), you should probably keep it down to 3 or 4 noms a week in a given topic area. If someone is creating bad articles at a higher rate than that in a given topic area, talk to them and get them to slow down and see the AfD outcomes if you can. But yeah, flooding the system with these is never going to go well. Just don't do it. Hobit (talk) 18:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse closure but with permission to renominate on a slower and more careful basis. Stifle (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

16 May 2024

ro:Vasa Proiect – en wiki DRV cannnot help with a ro wiki deletion. Please use ro.wiki Star Mississippi 02:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
ro:Vasa Proiect ([[|talk]]|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|restore) Buna ziua, a fost stearsa pagina creata de mine pt firma de proiectare Vasa Proiect. Administratorul Gikü a invocat motivul A7 “nici o indicatie a importantei”. Nu mi-a oferit nici o oportunitate sa ii raspund si mi-a sters pagina. I-am explicat ulteriror ca este vorba despre o firma renumita de proiectari din Sibiu care a facut numeroase cladiri, care au fost mentionate in detaliu in sectiunea portofoliu a paginii Wikipedia. I-am explicat ca am inclus referinte la cladirile construite pe baza proiectelor Vasa Proiect si la numeroasele companii, inclusiv internationale, cu care a colaborat Vasa Proiect, in masura in care acestea exista online. Dar, avand in vedere natura domeniului de actvitate, si anume proiectarea pt constructia de cladiri, importanta firmei o demonstreaza cladirile construite si nu toate sunt mentionate in presa/ online etc. De aceea am fost limitata in numaraul de referinte care l-am putut include. Deasemenea am vazut alte firme de proiectare din Romania care au pagini similare pe Wikipedia, chiar cu mai putine referinte decat Vasa Proiect, si care nu au fost sterse. Doresc sa mentionez si ca Gikü mi-a criticat pagina invocand probleme de copyright pt logoul firmei si imaginile caldirilor, pt ca proveneau de pe siteul siteul Vasa Proiect (http://vasaproiect.ro/). Aceasta este o critica absurda pt ca acesta este siteul nostru, pozele si logul ne apartin, de aceea le-am inclus de pe pagina noastra de Wikipedia. Deci nu are sens sa se invoce o problema de copyright. Consider ca stergerea pagingii si motivele invocate sunt incorecte. Va rog sa ma ajutati. Va multumesc. Danawiki2024 (talk) 15:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Comment - The following is a machine translation from Romanian: Hello, the page I created for the design company Vasa Proiect has been deleted. Administrator Gikü cited reason A7 "no indication of importance". He didn't give me any opportunity to answer him and deleted my page. I explained to others that it is about a famous design firm from Sibiu that made numerous buildings, which were mentioned in detail in the portfolio section of the Wikipedia page. I explained to him that I had included references to the buildings built on the basis of Vasa Proiect projects and to the many companies, including international ones, with which Vasa Proiect collaborated, to the extent that they exist online. But, considering the nature of the field of activity, namely the design for the construction of buildings, the importance of the company is demonstrated by the buildings built and not all of them are mentioned in the press/online, etc. That is why I was limited in the number of references that I could include. I have also seen other design firms from Romania that have similar pages on Wikipedia, even with fewer references than Vasa Proiect, and which have not been deleted. I also want to mention that Gikü criticized my page invoking copyright issues for the company logo and the images of the boilers, because they came from the Vasa Project website ( http://vasaproiect.ro/ ). This is an absurd criticism because this is our website, the pictures and the logo belong to us, that's why we included them from our Wikipedia page. So it makes no sense to invoke a copyright problem. I believe that the deletion of the page and the reasons cited are incorrect. Please help me. Thank you Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Comment - We need provisions for Speedy Endorse, similar to Speedy Keep at AFD. In this case it is not even clear what if anything was deleted. The filer refers to something have been A7, but also says that there is no copyright problem, which implies that an admin thinks that there is a copyright problem. We do consider A7 appeals, if we know what they are. We don't consider copyright appeals, even if we know what they are. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Speedy Close ? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Close as wrong venue. This actually appears to be a dispute on ro.wiki so not anything we can have a view on here. Doesn't appear to be a similar problem on en.wiki that I can find. JMWt (talk) 17:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.