Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kristen Onsgard

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kristen Onsgard[edit]

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Bridge player. Seems like a total failure of WP:GNG. Specifically, there is not a single independent source in the article, and I was not able to find any either. From WP:GNG: "Independent of the subject excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it". Within bridge, "affiliated with the subject" means bridge federations, leagues, and tournaments - and of course also the subject herself (here, I'm referring to the Amazon page for a book.) Prolonged attempts to explain the creator what a significant and independent source is, have not bore fruit at all; a discussion of this nature might also come up during this discussion. References to a bridge SNG might also come up, which is irrelevant as long as GNG is not met. Geschichte (talk) 15:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women and Texas. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - We have already gone through this review process with this user. My account is autopatrolled, new articles I create should not have to go through the review process as I am supposed to be trusted to know what types of articles meet Wikipedia guidelines.

Kristen won a North American Bridge Championship (NABC). These Bridge events are open to players around the world and many fly in, including the world's top professional players, to compete at these 10 day tournaments. Winning an unlimited event at an NABC is very prestigious achievement. I created Kristen's page, and also included a picture.

Geschichte decided to move this new article to Draft space. There was discussion on this user's Talk page about this. I asked for more senior Wikipedia editors to review the submission. They decided that the page was notable, overruled Geschichte, and Star Mississippi moved the article to the main Wikipedia on April 7, asking Geschichte to take it to AfD if there was any issues.

One would have thought the discussion was over, but Geschichte retaliated by adding to Kristen's page on April 11, having just been overruled on that very issue.

Since April 11 the page has been edited by others, including additional information about Kristen and more references added.

I removed the "no significant coverage" banner today. Geschichte then retaliated again by submitting this to AfD.

I have created 7 pages on Bridge players this year. All are similar in style, scope. None of them have been sent to AfD. I have probably created 300+ Wikipedia pages for Bridge players over the last few years.

I don't want to get into a flame war, but "Prolonged attempts to explain the creator what a significant and independent source is, have not bore fruit at all" is not what has happened. Another Wikipedia editor, Star Mississippi overruled Geschichte issues. This is Geschichte second retaliation to being overruled. The first retaliation was adding the banner, the second retaliation was submitting this to AfD almost a month after it was approved.

A general rule of thumb in Bridge is anyone who has won a World event, won a European event, or won a North American Bridge Championship is meets the notability requirements, based on comparisons with other sports.

Kristen meets that criteria.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 03:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She more than likely does meet notability criteria, but we need sourcing about this person in order to build the article. What's used now isn't acceptable. Oaktree b (talk) 01:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - In "Independent of the subject excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it", the article's subject in this case is surely Kristen Onsgard. Someone affiliated with her is surely intended to mean a family member, friend, or someone who is part of the same circle. Surely interpreting it as excluding works produced by a national bridge federation is interpreting it far more broadly than was intended? JH (talk page) 09:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Direct quote from WP:SPORTCRIT: "governing sports bodies are not considered independent of their players" Geschichte (talk) 20:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - please can someone confirm which source(s) show significant coverage of Onsgard? I have checked each one and can't find any. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment as I was pinged. I don't view myself as having overruled Geschichte as that's not really a thing here. I believed the article deserved a chance in mainspace, and I restored it acting as an editor, not as an admin. I have not looked further and likely will not during the run of this discussion so I take no point on this deletion discussion. Geschichte disagreed with my restoration, as is within their right as an established editor, and brought it here for the community to discuss. That's exactly the process that should happen. Nicolas.hammond, being autopatrolled does not mean your articles can't be brought for deletion. I'd venture a guess that every editor who has written more than a handful has had one of the articles they started brought for deletion. It is not personal, although it may feel it. Please look for independent, reliable sources which will help determine whether Onsgard is notable, not any "rule of thumb". Star Mississippi 01:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This needs input from someone who understands who Wikipedia works. The comments above need not be characterized by me as they speak for themselves, with non-existing concepts such as "approval", "overruling", "retaliation" etc. Geschichte (talk) 07:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Please avoid interpersonal drama, and focus on substantive arguments relating to notability as determined by our guidelines.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 00:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Outside of team profiles, there is no coverage for this person. Even what's used now in the article is ranking listings from various bridge federations. We need articles in media of some kind about this person. Oaktree b (talk) 01:42, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage. I was unable to find any SIGCOV during a search and none has been presented here. I am also not seeing anything wrong with User:Geschichte's process on the matter. When drafting and tagging the page gets rejected without any improvements then the next logical step is to take them to AfD. Alvaldi (talk) 11:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Kristen's picture was on the front page of the International Bridge Press Association May 2024 bulletin, https://www.ibpa.com/, for the NABC win. This bulletin is not yet archived so is only accessible to IBPA members, so I can't add to her page. In other words, winning an NABC event is a big deal.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 13:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There is current no SNG for Bridge. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(sports). I added a proposal for Bridge in the Talk section. I based the SNG proposal on other non-common sports.

For example, curling, kickboxing, orienteering, triathlon. In all of these the equivalency (winning a major event) merits a Wikipedia page.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 13:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I created Kristen's page the day after she won the NABC. The issue for me is not Kristen's page per se, but the application of the criteria for SNG/GNG. Hence the reason for creating the Bridge SNG proposal. In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability#Subject-specific_notability_guidelines

A topic is presumed to merit an article if:

It meets either the general notability guideline (GNG) below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific notability guideline (SNG); and
It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy.

This article has its equivalence to the SNG requirements for other less well known sports. Nicolas.hammond (talk) 13:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: For a sport like curling, it says: "Significant coverage is likely to exist for a curler if they ...". Likely to exist being the keywords, it is then up to us to find that coverage. It might be quite difficult for earlier, non-Western participants, whereas the easiest participants to cover should be current, American or British ones. Geschichte (talk) 16:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. GNG coverage is required, and that means multiple sources of IRS SIGCOV must be shown to keep this article. No such sourcing has been found. Also, organizations are inherently invested in promoting their own activities and therefore are clearly not independent of subjects participating in those activities. JoelleJay (talk) 00:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.