Talk:Daxinzhuang

Daxinzhuang is currently a World history good article nominee. Nominated by Generalissima (talk) (it/she) at 21:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

An editor has placed this article on hold to allow improvements to be made to satisfy the good article criteria. Recommendations have been left on the review page, and editors have seven days to address these issues. Improvements made in this period will influence the reviewer's decision whether or not to list the article as a good article.

Short description: Archaeological site in Shandong

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Did you know nomination[edit]

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... that Drake discovered an ancient Chinese city?

Source: Li, Min (2008). Conquest, Concord, and Consumption: Becoming Shang in Eastern China, p. 70 https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/60866

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mounir Akbache and Template:Did you know nominations/Nozawana

Created by Generalissima (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 47 past nominations.

Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 07:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Both article need end-of-sentence cites for the fact of him discovering the city. The source confirms the claim ("He discovered the Shang deposits at Daxinzhuang"). The source is a doctoral dissertation, but it seems to have a decent number of citations according to Scholar, so I think it's fine to use. Earwig's clear for both articles and no other issues I can see, so gtg once the end-of-sentence cites are added. AryKun (talk) 13:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AryKun: Oops! Added end of sentence cites. Thank you! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 13:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Daxinzhuang/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Generalissima (talk · contribs) 21:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 18:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reserving. Will try to review during the (long) weekend. —Kusma (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Content and prose review[edit]

Title: isn't it more properly the "Daxinzhuang site" (大辛庄遗址), near the village of Daxinzhuang? (There is also a Daxinzhuang in Hebei; that is what the deleted substub previously at this title was about).
The lead section is lacking a mention of oracle bones and writing.
"dated to the Neolithic Yueshi and Longshan cultures" when is that?
same for "late Erligang"
What is "native" about the Yueshi culture? This is about the Erligang coming from Henan?
"Pottery [..] was gradually assimilated" what does that mean?
Archaeology: would it be good to mention that Drake only discovered Shang dynasty relics?
Can you gloss/give some context on Erligang culture and Anyang period? Same for Yueshi and Longshan. At least give approximate centuries.
Zou Heng: do you know the name in characters? (Helpful for disambiguation / research if there is no article).
Link oracle bone.
Site: The Zhongnan Mountains are in Shaanxi, so your link goes to the wrong page. According to the Shandong source, it is the 泰沂 mountain chain, zh:泰沂山脉, and looking at a map confirms it is not very far from Mount Tai.
Apparently the Xiezigou (characters would be nice: 蝎子沟) used to be a dried river channel.
History: Qianzhangda: characters would be nice ([1] gives me 前掌大).
Pretty sure the Xuehe River is zh:小魏河 (redirect from zh:薛河 Xuehe).
Is it possible to give a little bit of context on the Erligang culture? At least explain how far we are from Zhengzhou and that the Yellow River was elsewhere back then? (on a modern map both Zhengzhou and Jinan are on the Yellow River).
Gloss Yuan Guangkuo (and ideally give characters).
"the settlement sat along a major trade to northern Shandong" probably a trade route?
"Daxinzhuang as the Erligang transitioned into the Late Shang" is this supposed to be a heading? It is not a sentence. Certainly explaining that the Erligang culture is a precursor to the Shang dynasty culture is very helpful.
Consider adding a map similar to that at Shang_dynasty#Early_Bronze_Age_archaeology for improved context?
Link Yinxu.
Do we know Fang Hui's name in characters?

General comments and GA criteria[edit]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Prose is generally fine, with some small issues. Some comments mostly on missing context above. (Some of these review comments are certainly optional for the purpose of achieving the GA criteria, so feel free to push back against anything you do not want to do, and please do push back against everything where I am wrong).
No major MoS issues, lead slightly incomplete.
No issues with NPOV or stability.
Broadness: some more context would help (especially centuries), see above, but generally this covers what I expect to hear, with perhaps one exception: we learn very little about Yueshi and Longshan cultures and the use of the site during the Zhou and Han dynasties.
Focus: no issues.
Images: no copyright issues. The caption could be better; it seems this is actually a Longshan culture artifact?
It would be great to have more Erligang/Anyang era images as these eras are the main focus of the article.
Sources look mostly fine. Li 2008 is a thesis; could you comment on how it passes WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
Wang, Campbell, Fang, Hou 2022 is not cited (should it be?)

@Generalissima: done reviewing, waiting for your comments. —Kusma (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source spot checks[edit]

Numbering as in Special:Permanentlink/1225568770.

1a ok
2: ok. Actually, according to the footnote, it is by Fang Hui方辉. The actual inscriptions from the oracle bones are cool. Sadly I couldn't figure out the copyright status of the images (or find the original article in "考古").
3: ok, but why not mention Xu Ji as the expedition leader?
8: looks fine (the maps in this source helped me greatly to understand the scope of the Erligang state)
18/19 and friends: could only access snippets, but all looks plausible.

No concerns about OR/paraphrasing. —Kusma (talk) 10:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Outsider comments[edit]

Using the term Shang for any archaeological finds except those of the Late Shang (which is directly attested) brings in a whole raft of unwarranted assumptions (e.g. Campbell 2014 pp15–15, Liu & Chen pp256, 258). This is easily avoided by using archaeological terminology (upper and lower Erligang, etc) for archaeology. Kanguole 07:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is a distinction to be made between which culture archaeological finds belong to and which era of Chinese history they correspond to. I personally am partial to "culture name+BCE century" as the most informative way but I could be wrong. —Kusma (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Before the Late Shang, we are dealing with prehistory. The traditional history goes back further, of course, but aligning it with archaeological finds is a problem. The archaeological terminology is more direct and precise. Kanguole 09:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]