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[–]Tenoke 34 points35 points  (7 children)

If you are already sleeping 7 hours you likely don't need to sleep longer as that's already around the average 'optimal' sleep. A lot of the recommendations for 8-9 hours are exaggerations and most negative effects start at 6 or less hours.

At any rate, melatonin doesn't typically make you sleep longer (if you are getting that much already and can fall asleep at least) but it can potentially improve the quality of sleep so measuring how you feel/perform on post-melatonin days is likely more useful.

[–]sskaye[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Fair enough. I got such a huge subjective benefit going from 6.5 to 7h, I wanted to see if it would be even better to go higher. Might be my inability to sleep longer is because 7h is "enough".

[–]Ddddhk 10 points11 points  (2 children)

From personal experience — 7 is fine is you had a mostly sedentary day, but intense exercise requires 8-9

[–]original_carbon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

holy moly that extra hour build up can feel amazing. and feeding myself extra sleep until i start waking up earlier on my own feels a lot better than using alarms to brute it.

[–]ConfidentFlorida 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also intense learning or mental challenges can cause me to need more sleep than normal.

[–]right-folded 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought 8-9h suggestion was more aimed at those who really need it but get 7h only due to their schedule (or its lack) and think that's enough.

[–]Daniel_HMBD 18 points19 points  (10 children)

Hahaha, hypothesis / request for replication: the effect size of melatonin on sleep quality in your study design is much smaller than the effect size of doing the study on sleep quality. We should 1. Couple melatonin with RCT trial studies by standard 2. Perform a RCT on RCT methods on melatonin and sleep quality

seriously: thanks for sharing, I find your post very interesting. I think your self-recorded sleep times may be biased and/or very noisy and I'd recommend using an automated solution. I'm surprised the Apple watch doesn't work... I'm generally against Apple, but would've expected the measurement quality to be good.

[–]sskaye[S] 10 points11 points  (7 children)

Yeah, I was surprised as well. My original intention was to just use the manual recording as a double check of the watch since I hadn't validated it, but I quickly realized the watch just wasn't accurate.

I'm looking into other automated sleep tracking solutions, but none seem fantastic. The Quantified Scientists has been doing reviews of sleep trackers, comparing them to EEG, and none of them seem that accurate at predicting sleep and wake times, though the Oura, fitbit, and Whoop all seem better than the Apple Watch.

[–]AtomikPi 6 points7 points  (4 children)

For what it’s worth, I have an Oura and am happy with the measurements. It also lets you download an xlsx of all your data, which I’ve analyzed in the past. (I was also happy ish with my Fitbit. Briefly wore a Garmin to bed and was very disappointed. )

You might also try time release melatonin. I take half of a natrol 1 mg every night. Some forms of magnesium may or may not be helpful. I take l-threonate, which has a pretty profound effect in the short-term (not sure about long-term, gwern found some weird long-term effects of magnesium).

[–]sskaye[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Thanks! Have you ever compared your Oura results with direct observation? I'm curious if they match up.

For melatonin, I tried time released in this study (was Scott's suggestion), but on the metrics I was looking at, it didn't perform any differently from non-time release.

A number of places have recommended l-threonate. What effects have you observed?

[–]AtomikPi 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Only anecdotally, but has been pretty accurate. If I were to complain, I think it might underestimate how long it takes me to fall asleep. I’m also a very boring sleeper - fall asleep quickly and sleep a while, but I at least used to wake up frequently for just a moment. (I use time release because waking up at night is more of a concern.)

Threonate makes me overtly tired and relaxed. It also reduced my night wake ups (subjectively). I just take one pill of the Jarrow version - two is strong, never mind the recommended dose of three.

[–]sskaye[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reducing night wake ups is what I'm going for. I'll give l-threonate a shot in my next round of tests.

[–]austospumanto 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agree. I’ve tried the Oura, the Amazon Halo band, AutoSleep, Apple Watch. Oura is most accurate, even at 5min granularity (eg for wake ups)

[–]Arry_Awk 2 points3 points  (1 child)

FWIW: I think the accuracy of sleep trackers depends in part on the person. Maybe how active you are in your sleep?

I’ve had a Fitbit for years - first the Charge 2, now the Charge 4 - and many people rave about how good they are for sleep tracking. But that was not my experience.

Take last night: I know I was asleep by midnight, but the Fitbit claims I was awake until 1:31 am. That’s worse than useless.

I did get decent data from the Zeo, of all things - a cut-down EEG headband made by a company that’s been out of business since about 2014. Apparently they are still in demand. I bought a used one on eBay after reading about it here:

https://www.polyphasic.net/sleep-tracking/zeo-sleep-tracking/

But wearing it all night is itself not very conducive to sleep.

On the plus side, they are cheaper than most other options - maybe $50-80, and no subscription costs.

[–]sskaye[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting. I don’t think i could wear a headband. I’ve already got a continuous glucose monitor that forces me to sleep on one side and wouldn’t want to add another orientation constraint.

[–]Zappa- 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'm generally against Apple

Curious, why?

[–]Daniel_HMBD 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry, sloppy writing + offtopic.

(I like devices where I can install software on my own and perform various measures for life extension: current smartphone is a 7yo Samsung galaxy s4 mini with android 9 on it. Reminds me to upgrade to 10 some time soon. So apples walled garden on ios is not what I want.)

[–]CynthesisToday 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing your experimental process and results.

I've used three different methods for assessing my sleep quality: Zeo (when it was a product), self-assessment as you've done, and Oura ring. I have sleep maintenance insomnia and really needed a method for assessing changes I've made to address that problem that did not require me to think about the measurement method. I've found, as you have, that thinking about it too much made it worse. Zeo is no longer a supported product. I did research on various methods available today. Here are three recent-ish assessments of sleep monitoring personal technology:

https://tinyurl.com/tpfx5mrh From Oura funded study in 2016

http://doi.org/10.2147/NSS.S286070 2021 study compared to polysomnography

doi: 10.2196/20465 2020 study compared to actigraphy

I think these mean that the Oura ring is at least sufficient to requirements for finding bigger changes but may not be able to detect changes of less than 10-ish minutes. Personally, I don't care about 6 minute differences. I want an hour or more better sleep to justify some continued action on my part. I picked the number "6 minutes" because that is the average improvement in sleep latency that sleep medication like Lunestra has achieved in clinical trials. With the side-effects of Lunestra (e.g. driving impairment the next day), 6 minutes is definitely not worth it.

In my efforts to improve sleep, these things have consistently proved effective: stop eating early (before 4pm), earlier to bed, very cool (62F) room, and ChilliPad (62F). As measured by the Oura ring, I can consistently get 60-90 minutes more sleep a night with these actions. Earlier to bed gets me more Deep Sleep, too. Subjectively, I notice the improvement. I've not found any supplement or type of food with any noticeable or measureable effect on my sleep. I've never noticed any effect from the usual suspects regarding "circadian rhythm" modulators (e.g. morning sunlight, blue blockers/ F.lux, melatonin, etc).

Good luck in getting more sleep. While 6-7 hours is about the minimum for a healthy adult, I do think I could be more active while maintaining mental capacity with more sleep. Trying for more quality sleep is worth it.

[–]sskaye[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! this is really useful. I'm particularly interested in trying out eating earlier. I currently eat at 5p because I noticed that doing so reduced my overnight blood sugar rise (I've got diabetes). I suspect I can reduce it further if I push back to 4p. Definitely worth an experiment.

[–]Zeack_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Why would the effect of melatonin have to be that big for you to take it? It is quite cheap so it would be worth it with a small effect.

How about measuring performance in a test immediately after waking up? I am thinking a few rounds of dual-n-back but other things would work in the same way. I imagine that this would improve with the quality of sleep.

[–]sskaye[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Personal preference, but for me the effect of any supplement has to be large enough to offset the risk of an unknown long-term negative effect. For example, melatonin is known suppress the onset of puberty by suppressing gonadotropin releasing hormone and generally has a number of effects in the body other than just inducing sleep. No studies have shown long term side effects, but it's a risk.

Regarding adding a cognitive performance test, I'm very interested in that. I'm experimenting with different options right now to try and find one that's precise enough and covers what I'm interested in tracking. I'm currently testing chess puzzles, but preliminarily it seems too noisy to be useful. Any other suggestions than dual-n-back?

[–]califuture 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm sort of like you as a sleeper: Feel MUCH better if I get approx 8 hours, but often have a hard time doing that. Here are things that have worked for me:

-Cardio workout during the day, hard enough to make me sweat-soaked and red-faced by the end.

-Anything that blocks noise and light: silicone earplugs, white noise machine, eye mask, blackout curtains.

-If you fall asleep easily but the problem is waking up too early, experiment with taking a sleep drug in the middle of the night. Set an alarm for about 3 hrs after you fall asleep and take melatonin or whatever. You want the alarm to go off at a time when you are dead asleep, and will fall back asleep easily. Slide the time around, looking for one that lets you sleep for about 8 hours total but wake without a hangover.

-Do whatever you need to do to avoid being waked up by your bladder early in the morning before you've gotten in a full 8 hours sleep. Restrict fluids in the evening, or wake yourself up with an alarm in the middle of the night to pee.

-Drugs that work for me, in order of effectiveness: benzos, diphenhydramine (benedryl), melatonin. Unfortunately, the more effective drugs are also the ones that are more harmful. I try not to fall back on benedryl or benzos unless I'm desperate. Sometimes take one of them if I haven't had an exercise session during the day, so know my odds of a good night's sleep are reduced.

[–]bnm777 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Relevant : https://youtu.be/gbQFSMayJxk

Huberman podcast with a rep scientist on melatonin

[–]highoncraze 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I've tried melatonin ground up and whole pill, from less than a mg to 10 mg, from a few hours before sleep (to simulate the body's natural release of it around nightfall) to half hour before sleep, not blind however, and noticed zero benefit.

The US government did an experiment on its air force pilots to see if it helped them sleep between missions and found it unproductive for that purpose as well.

[–]sskaye[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Did you ever find anything that did help?

[–]highoncraze 0 points1 point  (2 children)

My issue is sleep onset takes a really long time. Without sedatives, it takes 1-2 hours to fall asleep at night.

Zolpidem (Ambien) is the most effective sedative I've taken. Unfortunately, that's not useful long term, as tolerance and psychological issues can develop.

Benedryl has also put me to sleep fairly well in large doses. I was taking (8) 25 mg pills to put me to sleep, but this is also dangerous and terrible for long term, despite being OTC. For one thing, even 8 pills wasn't doing it for me after a few months, and I was waking up very groggy and in somewhat of a fugue state. A psychiatrist I know told me Benedryl does, in fact, cause dementia in older people who chronically use it. I may not be 60 years old, but I could tell it was negatively affecting my cognitive functioning.

Good sleep hygiene, like not eating, drinking alcohol, or working out no later than at least 3 hours before going to bed, and not staring at a computer/television/phone screen right before bed seems to mildly work. But very mildly.

I just can't seem to turn my brain off, and no amount of meditation during the day, or abstinence from stimulating things before bed seems to help much. Lying awake for hours is not uncommon, and I'll just be thinking about any inane thing. I looked into CBT-I (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia) and it frankly seemed kind of pointless, though I only used one source book whose advice seemed to boil down to weaning off sedatives. That simply does not work for me. Any day I don't take sedatives of some kind, I'll immediately go back to waiting 1-2 hours for sleep onset. Had this issue for over 25 years, since early childhood, and I'm just kind of resigned to it.

[–]sskaye[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That sounds Awful. Sorry you have to go through that.

[–]highoncraze 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, it is pretty awful, but it's also normal for me, so I've just gotten used to it.

[–]ClF3ismyspiritanimal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Things that I have found apparently successful: magnolia bark extract, trazodone, a little stilton (or similar kind of blue cheese) cheese before bed. I realize the stilton sounds kind of nuts, but it genuinely seems to improve the quality of my sleep. Of course, your mileage may vary.

[–]ProcrustesTongue 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Contemporaneous recording of waking disrupted my sleep, leading to more recalled wake-ups and possibly increased fatigue

I ran a sleep study on myself when I was having trouble with insomnia and found the same. I'd guess I lost ~1 hour a night of sleep during a period of my life I was already averaging around 5 hours of sleep a night.

[–]Felz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does anyone else have any suggestions for supplements or interventions I should try?

Glycine, possibly in the form of magnesium glycinate.