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[–]MisterYouAreSoDumbNatrium Health & Nootropics Depot 13 points14 points  (3 children)

I can 100% confirm that the CYP3A4 induction from modafinil is substantial. At least it is for me. If I take modafinil in the morning, then take a substance that is metabolized by CYP3A4 (i.e. kratom), then the effects are drastically diminished. If I do the same thing, but take black pepper and grapefruit juice before the kratom, the effects become strong again. So I know CYP3A4 is definitely being induced a significant amount.

Is that what is causing the tolerance buildup? Perhaps it's playing a big role. However, receptor down-regulation could be a factor as well. I think the short term tolerance is CYP450 related, and long term tolerance is receptor related.

Using milk thistle is one option, but I'd go with the black pepper extract and grapefruit juice myself. I know that does a good job of inhibiting CYP3A4 for 5-7 days.

[–]Vaenomx 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Not only would I go with black pepper, I would capitalize on the opportunity and throw Curcumin in the mix: the trouble with Curcumin is that it needs piperine to be absorbed significantly. (so nerd)

"Preliminary studies indicate that curcumin may have a positive effect on neurogenesis in the hippocampus and may increase levels of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in rats."

"A curcumin pyrazole derivative was found to improve memory and was neuroprotective, stimulating BDNF in vitro and in vivo.[33][34] The compound was found to be protective in animal models of brain trauma and stroke.[35][36]"

[–]MisterYouAreSoDumbNatrium Health & Nootropics Depot 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yeah, I assume you read through that Longecity post on it?

[–]Vaenomx 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn't but now that you mention it I may. The copy/pasta was from Wikipedia.

[–][deleted]  (5 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    Sounds like the plan I should use. I'm terribly used to dozing off at work during meetings so it would be nice to try modafinil to get through an especially long day. Even better would be if I don't end up napping when I get home later that night.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Pretty much. What bothers me on top of that is a lot of the people who can function under those "normal" circumstances are just cruising along and not savoring any of it.

      Meanwhile, I struggle to keep up with the "normal routine", but squeeze every last drop out of the moments that I can utilize.

      At times I don't know what I'm working toward in life. Seems like things just get worse over time...

      [–]halfourname 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Read "The History of the World in 5 Drinks" and you'll see the outline of the idea that "a world that society deems normal" is partly a product of a bunch of mind alterants. But yeah, it's not cool.

      [–]VulgarTruth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      So you basically take it twice a week? Like, once monday, once thursday? I was thinking about doing the same and have ultra-productive days set up at work/school -- use the 'downtime' between 'on days' to get everything set up perfectly

      [–]greencymbeline 3 points4 points  (5 children)

      I've been taking it for about 1.5 years now for severe fatigue related to a chronic autoimmune disease. In my opinion, I have developed a tolerance to it over time. The first about 6 months, it worked amazingly. Then its effectiveness has been tapering off over time, to the point that I now feel little to no positive effect taking it (as I am exhausted 24/7 despite taking it every day, sometimes twice a day). My psychiatrist said it is known that you can develop a tolerance, and that you can take a "vacation" from it from time to time to regain its effectiveness.

      [–]jupiter3888 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      I wonder if switching to its "stronger" isomer Armodafinil would help in overcoming your tolerance?

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      That's more akin to upping the dosage than resetting tolerance.

      [–]halfourname 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      hmmm... might want to look into bromantane too.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Did the perceived tolerance coincide with a flare up of your autoimmune disease?

      I have ulcerative colitis, and I almost perceive that no drug works while I'm flaring (except massive doses of acetaminophen for lingering pain).

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Modafinil's pharmacology also consists of elevated histamine levels, orexinergic activity(orexin shown to ameliorate sleep deprivation induced cognitive impairment) and DRI/NRI. I imagine tolerance could occur via many of these pathways, reducing the effects.

      [–]earcaraxeSmarterNootropics 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Awesome work! This is very well researched so far and creates an amazing basis for discussion. Thank you for putting this together.

      [–]ALonelyPlatypus 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      I have not noticed much in the way of tolerance build up. And I have gone through periods of frequent use then most if not all other comments. I take sunpharma's modalert if that's relevant.

      I've gone through phases where I've taken it roughly 5 days out of seven for a couple weeks. I usually just take 200 mg because that's what my pills are in however 100 mg is pretty effective too when I actually feel like breaking em up (I very rarely do, it's a pain they just disintegrate most of the time). As far as mindstate in I can't really tell the difference, 200 just lasts longer.

      I used to get a bit of a speedy feel when I had it with other stims (caffeine, nicotine, noticed a bit of a change when I started taking Welbutrin). But as far as I can tell that's the only change I've experienced.

      As far as modafinil as a sleep replacement goes, I've had a couple modafinil fueled all nighters. My recipe for those is to pop a pill at ~10 PM (ideally before I start to feel tired). And then pop another at ~8 AM. For the entirety of the night and next day. Matter of fact by the next night I still don't feel any real sleep deprivation. I've noticed a bit of dream daze (not full sleep but distortion of words and shapes in a dreamlike manner) during particularly boring classes (one's I'd have a hard time staying awake during normally).

      I actually intend to try a double all nighter at some point for curiosity sake (although it will require some low risk circumstances). I've tried all nighter=>normal sleep => all nighter before and I didn't notice any significant effects there either.

      So tolerance could A. Be all in your head. or B. Be very dependent on individual brain chemistry. Or very possibly a combination of the two.

      [–]cretan_bull[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      If you're interested in what will happen if you try a double (or triple) all-nighter, there have been a number of military funded studies for exactly that purpose.

      Modafinil During 64 Hr of Sleep Deprivation: Dose-Related Effects on Fatigue, Alertness, and Cognitive Performance

      Unfortunately there isn't a free copy available, but the abstract provides enough information

      300 mg of modafinil in a 24-hr period (100 mg every 8 hr) was found to maintain cognitive performance at or near baseline levels throughout the sleep-deprivation period

      150 mg of modafinil in a 24-hr period (50 mg every 8 hr) provided some maintenance of performance

      50 mg of modafinil in a 24-hr period (16.7 mg every 8 hr) was not substantively different from placebo

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      3-4 days on, minimum of 2 off. It's common knowledge the effects diminish if used every day.

      Having said that, if you have a heavy 5-6 day cycle, as I have just had, you can try to something like: 2 days 100mg mod, 2 days 200 mg mod, 2 days 150mg armod. This has worked well for me, but it's apprent that you need to rap up your use for a prolonged period of usage.

      coincidentally, I'm not a fan of the armod. Normally if I take it on day one, it completely fucks me, makes me feel edgy and shitty and is counter productive. However, on days 5-6 the effects are alot more bareable, but just be warned you're gonna crash late day 6 regardless and day 7 is a little tricky also (I normally do caffeine for 2 days while I'm cycling off, something I avoid any day I'm taking mod)

      hope this help.

      [–]sousbois 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Just started Modafinil - 200mg per day - for the first time this week. Day 1 was briliant, Day 2 only quite good, Day 3 better than Day 2 (especially later in the day, oddly) and Day 4 - today - I hardly know I've had it.

      Definitely gonna skip it for a couple of days ...

      [–]EpsilonAlphaADD 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Hey, Excellent post, you were quite through in your answer so I'll try and cover a point you haven't. The effects modafinil exerts on gap junctions are thought to be CaMKII dependent, interestingly this protein is heavily involved in opioid tolerance. I know it's a bit of a stretch, however there's enough evidence suggesting a NMDA/PKC/nNOS pathway which has been implicated in both amphetamine and opioid induced neuronal changes.

      Now, while I believe that there are some lines of evidence suggesting this is a possible target for modafinil tolerance we are majorly lacking in human research on the topic. Perhaps chronic over coupling (also can be reduced by sleep) leads to eventual desensitization, and transient inhibition of over coupling could produce a desirable outcome.

      Wish I could be more in depth but I'm tapping away on my phone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20585660/?i=19&from=camkii%20tolerance http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23345217/?i=2&from=camkii%20amphetamine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22796294/?i=1&from=camkii%20gap%20junction

      [–]cragv 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Thanks for putting this together, it's been an informative read. For anyone interested, I've been taking Modafinil for over a year straight (have had maybe ten days off in that time), taking 200mg after breakfast. As a sufferer of narcolepsy (mild) and excessive daytime sleepiness (moderate), this drug has been life changing since my diagnosis last year (I'm early 30s). No tolerance noted yet, it is still very effective. I'm careful not to take it if I haven't had enough sleep as I don't want to abuse it, but for what it is it's very effective.

      [–]usernameXXXX 2 points3 points  (6 children)

      I started taking Modafinil on the 23rd last month, 200mg a day. It was amazing for the first three days, my concentration and focus was unbelievably high, then day four and five the effects were non-existent.

      [–]cretan_bull[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      Did it still have its tiredness-suppressing effects after it stopped affecting your concentration and focus?

      [–]usernameXXXX 3 points4 points  (2 children)

      I took them in the morning so I don't recall.

      [–]love_to_fap 6 points7 points  (1 child)

      I would just like to point out the irony in this statement.

      Additionally, did you take any holidays to try and resensatize?

      [–]usernameXXXX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Yeah, I took about ten days off and then tried it again with no effect.

      [–]VVander 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      How much sleep did you get on those days? More or less than normal?

      [–]usernameXXXX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I think normal.

      [–]promethean93 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I took modafinil for about 2 years during college the only thing I can advise is a cycling practice. I used piracetam but for some it is not as effective. As with any drug tolerance will be your downfall so use only when absolutely needed.

      [–]indoordinosaur 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      If you type "eugeronic" into google it pulls up ONLY four results, one of which is this post. Guess this is a new word, lol.

      [–]cretan_bull[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Oops. That's supposed to be "eugeroic".