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all 39 comments

[–]WieBenutzername 17 points18 points  (2 children)

I'm in a similar boat. Switched over from a long gum habit several months ago mostly due to the absurd costs (nicotine from the gums being more expensive by mass than gold. That's some perverse incentive.), with a secondary motivation being that it might be easier to find out whether the nicotine's actually doing anything with a faster route of administration.

One of the most remarkable things about nicotine IMHO is how it is so strongly reinforcing and so weakly pleasurable, supporting the notion that these two are quite distinct things. For example, I find weed several orders more pleasurable, but less reinforcing. A good experience on psychedelics can be ecstatic, yet with no reinforcement at all. Dopamine reuptake inhibitors are moderately nice and induce a massive compulsion to redose.

Apart from the discomfort of withdrawal, I keep vaping for the purported cognitive/nootropic benefits, though TBH that's more a prior belief than a conviction from experience. I find it hard to tell, especially given how there's necessarily a delay of several days either way between using nicotine with a tolerance, and being without nicotine without withdrawal.

I second your observation concerning the combined effect with alcohol and THC.

Side question: Is there any conclusion about the relative health risks of PG vs VG fluid yet? Tried to research it once, but didn't find definite answers. (AFAIK, they're both pretty harmless by themselves, the question is more about the byproducts from overheating)

[–]LacusSomniorum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A good experience on psychedelics can be ecstatic, yet with no reinforcement at all.

Psychedelics: what the hell is going on? Not just with reference to the divorce between enjoyment and reinforcement, but everything.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One of the most remarkable things about nicotine IMHO is how it is so strongly reinforcing and so weakly pleasurable, supporting the notion that these two are quite distinct things. For example, I find weed several orders more pleasurable, but less reinforcing.

Huh, I find weed more reinforcing than nicotine! (And also more pleasurable, although I wouldn't call nicotine only weakly pleasurable, personally.) But that impression may be garbled by weed causing disruption to my productivity, whereas nicotine arguably enhances it. (For example, THC tanks my attention span.) My urge to ingest THC concerns me whereas my urge to vape doesn't, so I think about the weed urge more often.

[–]Beardus_Maximus 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I've read your post here and your 5 month old post as well. I'm still not sure whether you were previously a smoker, or started vaping de novo.

In either case, it appears that you have created a new physical dependence and also enjoyed vaping. Like, a lot. So... congratulations?

Is this a good thing? It sounds like you are enjoying it. Are you still getting any nootropic benefits?

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Never smoked before vaping. I have now tried clove cigarettes and spliffs.

In answer to your other question, from the post:

Also, tentatively: I think that I'm still getting slight nootropic benefits, on par with how I'm affected by the of 1-3 cups of coffee that I drink on a daily basis. Marginally more alert, focused, and calm — certainly outstripping any other nootropic that I've tried (unless you count caffeine), including modafinil. Granted, modafinil seems to effect me less than others. My fiancé and I tried similar doses; he's much larger than me and the modafinil affected him plenty, whereas I felt nothing. We both enjoy vaping nicotine.

[–]Brwright11 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Wow man, I started at 24mg/nicotine to kick cigarettes and it's worked but I vape 6mg juice and probably 3-6ml's a day. That high a dose would knock me out now. I could only vape the 24mg nicotine juice for about a week before I stepped down to 18, probably 4 months later stepped down to 12, another 8 months I stepped down to 10, and 4 months of that I stepped down to 6. I've been on 6 mg for about a year now. .5ohm bottom coil tank @ 35.5 watts.

I probably "chain" vape a bit because I still work with smokers, so 5 minutes at a time vaping isn't uncommon, but most of the time just 1 or 2 hits and I'm good for roughly 90 minutes.

[–]SuperLeroy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I read those numbers too and was like WTF.

I would be shaky/jittery/nauseous from that amount of nicotine.

When I would travel for work, I would end up buying 2 packs of cigarettes on Monday morning, and often need a third pack by Thursday. (Cigs were cheaper where I lived than pretty much everywhere i traveled, but I didn't want to buy 3 packs, sort of giving in to the bad habit)

Vaping helped me completely stop smoking.

I don't think I've had a cigarette since 2014 or so. I've smoked a cigar here and there, but it's a one-off kind of thing, and you definitely don't want to inhale a stogie - bleh!

I stepped down from 18 to 12, and then 9 and then 6 and then 3.

Then I just gave up vaping completely, since like 2016 or so.

The weight gain tho. oh man. I still haven't taken those "quit vaping" pounds back off.

[–]Rholles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From what I understand normal vape juice with the same nominal concentration as nicotine salts in mg/ml will feel a lot more concentrated because users consume a lot more volume of the juice with typical use.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I don't know why, but in my experience nicotine salts feel quite different from the rest. My fiancé used a traditional setup for a while, and his normal vape juice would hit me harder than my nicotine salts.

[–]Brwright11 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I've never used salts but that's an interesting tidbit to know

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe at some point I'll look up (and try to remember) the actual difference so I don't sound like a dipshit talking about this, lol

[–]White_Dudeness 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I started out vaping 20-30mg nicotine salts, and now I rotate between various juices that range from 20mg to 55mg.

O_O

Boosters are 20mg here, and I dilute them in pure VG to get a comfortable 6mg.

Yes, the tolerance scales like that, so it makes sense to scale it down to the nicotine intake of an average smoker, not to five times of that for no good reason.

Especially since unlike with smoking, you don't have to finish the cigarette when vaping, so the regime where you satisfy the craving and stop immediately resulted in a decisively downward sloping curve for me.

My experiences probably don't generalize because I only vape late at night when I drink beer. And I purposefully reduced it to that point, so I get some extra nice feelings then and don't crave at all during the day.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nicotine salts, not normal juice. I'm not sure why they're different, but qualitatively, they are.

[–]harry_cane69 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I started vaping two weeks ago to quit smoking and actually enjoy it more than smoking by now. It really is kinda fun, chewing gum is a great analogy. I highly recommend it to anyone who has an even slight desire to quit smoking.

[–]DovesOfWar 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I'll join the others in recommending it to stop smoking, it's really an amazing substitute. I guess I'm a chainvaper compared to you, but use far less potent liquid (6mg/ml). If I switch to 12, I get headaches. But perhaps one person's headache is another's high?

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you're using traditional vape juice, and I'm using nicotine salts, that's why the numbers are so different. We may also have different nicotine thresholds.

[–]Psydra 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Long time smoker here. Switched to Juul when that first came around ( only one gas station in my metro area carried them ) and now i use a smoant S8 (similar to sourin.) I mostly switched due to breathing issues in my left lung, which turned out to be COPD. I really enjoy the boost nicotine gives me, so quitting wasn't really something I was too enthusiastic about and switched to vaping to see if my lungs could heal in the time being. After a year and a half without cigarettes i can confidently say my lungs are all better. Having my breathing back is a godsend.

I will say that although for the most part vaping has been good, once a pod goes bad (cotton starts burning) it almost seems worse than cigarettes, not to mention a disgusting flavor. My friends and I try to live by the rule of vape as little as possible so that the hits feel as good as possible. Although this is my intent, if I've just started a new pod I'll probably take a hit or two every hour or so. Unlike most of my peers however I almost never have craving during the morning, and mostly use the vape during work (work on a busy sales floor.) And generally I try not to use 2+ hours before i go to bed, as it really effects my quality of sleep.

Also going to have to second the THC+Alcohol+nicotine, although if I'm using 50mg juice I try not to as much at the end of the night when I'm pretty drunk. Sometimes that last vape hit can be the difference between feeling disgusting and having a good night.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great job quitting cigs! I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better!

I throw out pods as soon as they go off, or if I accidentally run them down and don't refill soon enough. Too unpleasant (and probably unhealthier than normal).

[–]LtKek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nice report.

About once a year I'll be drunk and someone will offer me a cigarette. They're so good. It's so good I know if I ever actually bought some nicotine I would be hooked for life.

Honestly from your report it doesn't sound like a habit worth picking up, but also not disastrous and better for you long term than alcohol addiction or constant pot usage.

[–]barturas 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I used nicotine spray for some month or two... The moment I stopped using it I felt mega depressed... I experimented with nicotine just for nootropic purposes. Haven’t noticed significant impact. Dependence and severe withdrawal is not worth the nootropic effect.

[–]mcgruntman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nicotine withrawal also made me depressed instead of giving me cravings. It took me quite a while to realise the association because I had been expecting cravings.

In the end I had to use patches to quit ecigs.

[–]right-folded 1 point2 points  (2 children)

What's chain vaping?

[–]ulyssessword{57i + 98j + 23k} IQ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It's the equivalent to chain smoking, which is when you smoke >=2 cigarettes in a row.

[–]Sealgrave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What's the term for stress-smoking?

I once played a cooperative game with a guy whose frequency of vaping (periodic hisses over VOIP) was massively correlated to stress. Whenever something was going down it'd go up.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Why did you start at the upper tolerable level if you hadnt been a smoker before?

Wouldnt it have made more sense to start at 3 to 6mg per ml , then you have somewhere to go when tolerance hits

Im curious if you think self discipline has lowerd in other areas of life now that you have one vice or is it just the vaping?

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Im curious if you think self discipline has lowerd in other areas of life now that you have one vice or is it just the vaping?

Oh, sorry, missed this question in my first response.

I just have terrible self-discipline overall. Some things are easy for me, for no apparent reason — for example, calorie-counting on days when I don't get drunk or high — and some things are a struggle.

I can't make myself wake up early for more than a couple of days in a row, or go to bed early for more than a couple of days in a row. Keep up an exercise routine? Don't make me laugh! When I need to print a form, or mail something, I drag my feet endlessly.

Also, my energy comes in spurts, varying day by day. My strength of will correlates with that fluctuation.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Normal vape juice is different from nicotine salts. I don't know why, but 20mg is the lowest that you usually see for that type of juice.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ahh ok

[–]AlexCoventry. 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Does it affect your blood pressure?

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I went to the doctor a couple of months ago and my blood pressure was fine. I'll have to see if anything changes over the next couple of years.

[–]AlexCoventry. 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Were you high on nicotine at the time? If not, how about a few minutes after a hit?

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wasn't at the time. I don't think they'd let me vape in the doctor's office.

[–]theyoungscrivener 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I regularly use the juul in the morning when I wake up and after work, but never during. It's hard to prevent myself from running outside for 2 minutes on a lunch break to use it if I have it in front of me, but if it's in my car I don't crave it enough to go out and get it. I cut myself at 5pm (~5 hours before bed). I find if I chain smoke through half a pod of 5% nicotine (don't know the math on how much nic that is) I start to have anxiety and panic attacks. But this level of usage gives me a consistent elation that mimics a strong cup of coffee.

[–]Wintryfog 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Ok, I just use sublingual dosing (put it under the tongue), 12 mg/mL.

1: Self-discipline seems mostly unchanged, I still only use it when working on math.

2: I still get a head rush from it, although it's easier to get nauseous from swallowing vape juice and it doesn't taste good so I generally tend to undershoot the head rush part by a bit. I think that the abysmal taste of vape juice actually played a big role in making it less addictive than it otherwise would be.

3: For me it's like once every 20-30 min while working on math.

4: wtf that's an awful lot. I trust you when you say nicotine salts have less of an effect, but in that case, why not just go back to standard nicotine, it'd cost less.

5: Yup, it's just an occasional mental ping "hey maybe you could take nicotine now" that is less intrusive than the "hey you could be playing minecraft now" ping from my college days.

Agreed that nootropic benefits are present, although modafinil has a massive effect on me.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't switch to standard vape juice because I like an easy-peasy pod system :3

[–]DiminishedGravitas 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Huh, I guess nicotine really is addictive for people other than me. I habitually smoked for years and still use snus or nicotine gum nootropically and recreationally, but I've never generated actual cravings for it. In fact, the more I use the less I enjoy it, so it balances out nicely. I'm quite sensitive to it too, and dislike larger doses (eg. gum stronger than 2mg) if I'm on alcohol.

Coffee effects me the same, although I do get a headache in the afternoon if I don't have my mid-morning cup.

But I had a question! Why vape at all, why not use gum or patches?

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Why vape at all, why not use gum or patches?

Cheaper and more fun.

[–]AlexCoventry. 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A lot riskier, though.

But maybe cancer will be much more treatable by that stage, if vaping turns out to be carcinogenic.

[–]Wintryfog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

gum and patches is super-expensive, vape fluid is cheap.