Wikipedia:Deletion review/Active

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

1.	Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~
2.	Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page: {{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.	For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 June 2}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.
4.	Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion: If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 June 2}}</noinclude> If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 June 2|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

• Endorse the original closing decision; or
• Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
• List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
• Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
• Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
• Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

• *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
• *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
• *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
• *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

• If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
• If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

• Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
• Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
• Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
• Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

Active discussions

31 May 2024

Tamil genocide

Tamil genocide (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

First of all, the closing admin has failed to address the problem with their closure and told me that they already expected a DRV.[1] This is contrary to the fact that admins should be so confident about their closure that they should not expect a DRV with regards to their closure.

A major argument that was made on this article was that there has been no genocide against the Tamils, thus the article is spreading disinformation. It also makes sense because there is not a single country that recognizes any genocide against the Tamils. However, this argument has been admittedly rejected by the closing admin.

Another major argument was that this article provided nothing that hasn't been already covered at War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War and List of attacks on civilians attributed to Sri Lankan government forces. This was ignored by the closing admin. Similarly, the quality of sourcing was also disputed[2][3] but this has been also rejected by the closing admin.

Article was created by a sock. It attracted many participants this article was already being discussed on WP:ANI before it was nominated for deletion. However, many of the "keep" supporters were totally canvassed given their suspicious editing history and that they edited Wikipedia, after staying for more than 1 year - 3 years, for the sake of making a "Keep" vote on this AfD.[4][5][6]

The AfD result could be in favor of deletion or draftification, but there was no consensus for "keep". Abhishek0831996 (talk) 05:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn (involved). My jaw dropped when I read the closing comments. Since when is the closing statement allowed to be a WP:SUPERVOTE? The closing statement – by the otherwise respected admin Liz – even failed to provide such an elementary item as the summary of the points raised by the respective camps. For the Keep camp, the statement fails to present the key argument of the (limited) existence of the term in literature. For the Delete position, it does not mention the red flags being raised about sourcing quality and quantity, the apparent violation of WP:NOTADVOCACY, and the fact that much of the content overlaps, and indeed has been copied from, another, more aptly titled article.

Instead, the SUPERVOTE reads: "The first 2/3 of this discussion isn't very helpful at all in terms of determining a closure but in the latter 1/3 editors brought forward actual, accepted reliable sources that can verify that this subject, which might be in dispute, is indeed notable." However, the sources brought up in "the latter 1/3" were mostly the same as those mentioned in the earlier part, and met with an identical challenge. Interestingly, the closer failed to name the source(s) that convinced her to cast this supervote or explain what was so unhelpful in the most of the discussion.

Not very helpfully, the closer suggests to "start a talk page discussion on a possible article page title change", apparently failing to notice that such a discussion was closed barely 7 days ago.

Finally, the closer takes an issue with tagging certain accounts as SPAs or canvassed. Regretfully, that's what we have these tags for, and El_C explicitly confirmed this.[7] If the closer is unable or unwilling to consider participation patterns at AfDs, perhaps they should reconsider closing discussions? — kashmīrī ^TALK 06:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

What remains certain to me is that there was anything but consensus in that discussion. If anything, the close should have been that of "no consensus". Calling the heated debate "consensus" is a blatant misuse of the term. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:57, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved and it would be nice if other involved editors would mark their comments likewise). El_C made an excellent close and gave clear reasons why a large number of delete votes weren't policy based and therefore do not form part of any considerations on what consensus was. TarnishedPath^talk 06:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved) In reply to Abhishek: \\Another major argument was that this article provided nothing that hasn't been already covered at War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War and List of attacks on civilians attributed to Sri Lankan government forces.\\

This is patently false. The latter page is a simple list of attacks and does not cover the topic of genocide at all, whereas the former focuses on the topic of war crimes (and that too only for the final stages of the war). The topic of Tamil genocide spans several decades, and includes the 1983 Black July pogrom which was described as genocidal. Oz346 (talk) 10:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved) - the closing admin made valid points that the article can be reworked than be deleted. The claim that no country recognizes Tamil genocide (does the head of the Canadian state commemorating "Tamil Genocide Remembrance Day" not count?) is immaterial since as the closer noted there's enough RS literature discussing the topic. The claim that this article provided nothing that hasn't been already covered in other hyperlinked articles is baseless, since the scope of this article is much broader than 2009 and a list of government attacks targeting all Sri Lankan citizens cannot really include analyses of Tamil genocide. Keep-supporters being "totally canvassed" is just an accusation that can also be levelled against many Delete-supporters who were just repeating each other's non-policy based reasons without possibly even having read the article. WP:POVDELETION states: "there is usually no need to immediately delete text that can instead be rewritten as necessary over time." The closing admin's decision is in keeping with the policies and as an uninvolved party is qualified to deliver neutral judgement unlike users with a conflict of interest as amply demonstrated by their lack of due diligence as per WP:BEFORE.---Petextrodon (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse (uninvolved). The appellant hasn't brought forth any valid argument for this appeal.
  • Their claim that This is contrary to the fact that admins should be so confident about their closure that they should not expect a DRV with regards to their closure is baseless. "Confident"? I think a better adjective would be naïve. Anyone who has been closing AfDs for over a month knows that this type of politically-charged AfD invariably ends up at DRV, no matter how you close it. We hate closing such discussions, but someone has to do it, and I'm glad it was Liz who took care of this one. I would have closed it exactly the same way, albeit with a somewhat harsher closing rationale.
  • The question of whether the referenced events in Sri Lanka qualify as genocide is not one that Wikipedia needs to--or even may--answer. We may only go by what secondary, reliable sources tell us. Whether or not sources call it a "genocide" could be relevant in a move review, but not in an AfD. For an article to meet our inclusion criteria, it suffices that the topic is notable. Neither a bad title nor poorly written content are valid reasons to delete an article. If no country recognizes any genocide against the Tamils, that should be mentioned in the article, with appropriate sourcing. "Misinformation", if such really exists in the article, should be fixed editorially.
  • As for the claim that the article provided nothing that hasn't been already covered at War crimes during the final stages of the Sri Lankan Civil War, I observe that none of those who brought this up !voted for Merge or Redirect. If their concern was truly one of a POV fork, then a redirect or selective merge would have been the obvious remedy. The fact that they all opted for "Delete" tells me their vote was motivated by politics, not by encyclopedic interest.
  • Yes, there is clear evidence of canvassing in this AfD - on both sides. Once you discard those votes, you are left with a clear consensus to keep the article.

I don't see any "supervote" here. I see a meticulous analysis of over 40 views expressed there, judicious categorization of each view into legitimate, relevant one or one that falls under WP:DISCARD, and a detailed closing rationale that provides transparency well beyond our usual standards. I also see an attempt here to relitigate the case by rehashing every argument already brought up at that AfD and hoping something sticks. Owen× ☎ 11:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved) Liz is one of the best closers in the project and this closure was within the discretion of the closer. Further . 58 Editors have edited this page making 726 edits and that is substantial editing by others hence socking is not relevant(Note 58 had edited at the AFD now 61).Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn (involved) I do agree that the closure failed to address the major points of the AfD. We have Palestinian genocide accusation but you need to see it's quality of sourcing. On the other hand, validity, sourcing and notability of this Tamil genocide are poor. "Keep" is clearly a misleading outcome in every form and that needs to be fixed. Ratnahastin (talk) 11:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved): Like OwenX, I believe this is just an attempt to relitigate the AfD, that Liz proffered an indepth analysis of her closing decision, and that the proponents of Deletion belabored irrelevancies such as "There wasn't a genocide." The nom's assertion that no country recognizes a Tamil genocide is equally irrelevant as well as blatantly false, and one could be forgiven for thinking that the nom is hellbent on ignoring facts they don't like. Yes, we get that the editors fervently trying to get this article deleted dispute its sourcing. Perhaps, however, we could mend the nom's accusations of canvassing by making sure that no one is acting under nationlist/ethnic motives of some fashion, and automatically discount the views of any participant with a history of editing South Asian articles; would the nom prefer that? Ravenswing 13:09, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (uninvolved). Close absolutely within reason and with such a charged topic, there was no question about DRV. That's not a lack of confidence, that's understanding the reality of this project and human editors. There's a reason it's covered by CT. Star Mississippi 13:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: There's strong evidence of off-wiki canvassing to the deletion discussion: www.reddit.com/r/Eelam/comments/1bzd8bg/an_english_wikipedia_page_for_tamil_genocide_has/ The sheer number of newly established or unused accounts that commented "Keep" in the discussion is very likely to have influenced the outcome, given that the closer refused to consider off-wiki teaming. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Kashmiri, I can't see the deletion discussion referenced once in that Reddit discussion. Perhaps my eyesight is going on me. Can you please provide specific evidence for your allegation against these Reddit users. Secondly I believe this topic as been addressed by Owen×, who stated that they saw canvassing on both sides. Can you please address their comments if you think that there was only canvassing on one side. TarnishedPath^talk 15:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The very first thing in the post is a link to the article, which had the afd tag at the top. —Cryptic 16:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cryptic, firstly it's a link to the article, not the AfD. The specific allegation is that people have been canvassed to the AfD. Secondly that Reddit thread was from two months ago, well before the AfD started. At the time when the Reddit user started that thread there was no AfD tag on the article and wouldn't be for some time. TarnishedPath^talk 16:09, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's a more recent post that had more inflammatory wording. Here was the text before it was deleted:

"Tamil Genocide is nominated for deletion by Indians

Indians and an Indian Muslim along with the Sinhalese are trying to delete this page:.

Here is a discussion on this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tamil_genocide"

There were also comments on the post before it was deleted, one of which was asking how they could address the issue. SinhalaLion (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@SinhalaLion, thankyou for that. Above another editor has stated that there was clear canvassing on both sides. They stated that if they were closing and disregarded the clearly canvassed votes on both sides, along with any votes that didn't address policy, that they would have come to the same close decision. TarnishedPath^talk 16:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Read the last post:

I reached out to some keyboard warriors on insta who usually comment on insta pages about Eelam and their responses are as follows:
::::"Bro my english is not Good"
::::"Not good bro, msg this guy: @@@@@ . he may help you"
::::"I work 9-5 and I don't have time to concentrate in this. But still look into it"
::::"I would not be able to personally write due to time insufficiency"
::::"It's most likely get deleted. So I don't wanna waste my time"
::::"I’m kinda busy now, but let me get back to you on it" (been a week since this reply. lol)
::::So this is the capability of these keyboard warriors. Useless people. Just fit to type random comments and curse at other ethnic people rather than doing something useful for their own community!

From this post it's apparent that the OP there tried to canvass others. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, that post wasn't asking people to opine in the discussion but to develop the page. However, that post was very canvas-like and the users could have turned into WP:MEATPUPPET very quickly if needed. SinhalaLion (talk) 16:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

This one then? https://www.reddit.com/r/Eelam/comments/1d3tenm/tamil_genocide_is_nominated_for_deletion_by/ — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

That's the one I brought up already. SinhalaLion (talk) 16:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Both of you have either wrongly accused or insinuated without explicit evidence that particular individuals outside Wikipedia have attempted canvassing to shape the AfD consensus here, one of you going so far as to quote their statements out of context. Is this even allowed on Wikipedia, considering the legal consequences? As for @Kashmiri's claim of "sheer number of newly established or unused accounts" voting Keep, this is baseless as there's literally only one (an IP) account that potentially fits the former while your definition of "unused accounts" is highly questionable. You marked pro-Keep Anonymouseditor2k19 who made last edit on 21 May 2024 as possibly canvassed but not pro-Delete JohnWiki159 who made last edit on 14 April 2024. It would have been preferable for an uninvolved editor to have done this task. All other newly created accounts voted in the wrong sections or even page and unlikely to have been counted at all. All of this is beside the point anyway since it's the quality of the arguments that admins look at and not the number of votes. There simply isn't a good case for complete deletion and the admin correctly treated non-responses like "it didn't happen" or "no one recognized" for what they were.---Petextrodon (talk) 20:03, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I might have missed one or two accounts, but I tried to tag all the suspicious accounts irrespective of whether they voted Keep or Delete. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

What are the legal consequences? Is it illegal to canvas people for Wikipedia arguments? Have I revealed any PII of the user? Have I called for harassment of the user? No, I'm calling a spade a spade. Go around saying that "Indians and an Indian Muslim along with the Sinhalese are trying to delete this page" on a strongly ideological forum and, yes, I think there are reasonable grounds to think that there was implicit canvassing, and there could have been meatpuppeting. Note that I haven't accused a single Wikipedia user of being a sockpuppet or meatpuppet. SinhalaLion (talk) 01:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@SinhalaLion As far as I know, you aren't allowed to throw around unproven accusations against individuals outside Wikipedia either, although user Kashmiri is more openly guilty of this than you are. What reasonable grounds are there when that Reddit post is 2 days old and most of the Keep votes were cast before that? The implication is that one of the Keep-voters in that timeframe could have been canvassed although they are all old Wikipedians who had been active before that Reddit post.---Petextrodon (talk) 02:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

There’s nothing “unproven” here — the user employed such inflammatory language that implicit canvassing is not an unwarranted accusation.

FYI, this wasn’t the only one. Beastmastah had done another round of posts on Tamil-dominated or left wing subreddits, using the term “Sinhalese fascists” when the rename discussion was taking place. Though that wasn’t directly related to the AfD, it certainly attracts a lot of attention from users of a certain ideological leaning — attention that could prove quite useful when other discussions arise.

Even if it turned out that no one was canvassed or meatpuppeting, this behaviour can and should be called out. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism. SinhalaLion (talk) 02:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@SinhalaLion We aren't discussing "Beastmastah". You also wrote: "There were also comments on the post before it was deleted, one of which was asking how they could address the issue."

It's obvious which user you were referring to and they made that comment on May 30 at 9:54:55 AM UTC . The likelihood that this user voted Keep and they even had any Wikipedia editing experience at all is very low to nil. That line didn't serve any good faith purpose and again the issue of lack of due diligence. I believe even banned users here are given the benefit of the doubt and individuals outside Wikipedia more so.---Petextrodon (talk) 02:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

In any case, we should be careful about linking to external social media profiles and connecting them to Wikipedia users whether explicitly or implicitly. User Kashmiri was warned about WP:OUTING attempt which is a serious crime.---Petextrodon (talk) 03:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I never said that the user asking for instructions on what to do (on May 30 at 9:54:55 AM UTC) contributed to the AfD discussion. I brought their comment up to show that there had been interest in contributing by at least one person in the post, hence it's reasonable to see the original post as a canvassing attempt. Whether this particular user or someone else ended up joining the discussion is irrelevant - if it was because of the post, then it's canvassing at the very least and possibly meatpuppeting (if the OP has an account on Wikipedia).

I would give the benefit of the doubt to the OP, but that all went down the toilet the moment they said "Indians and an Indian Muslim along with the Sinhalese are trying to delete this page." Sorry, one doesn't get to use such ethnically charged language and then ask for "benefit of the doubt" (not that they've asked anyways). SinhalaLion (talk) 03:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

You have misunderstood me. Ethnically charged Reddit posts are none of our concern here. I'm saying Wikipedia should not be a place to level unproven accusations against particular individuals outside it as it's forbidden. There's no reasonable grounds to suspect a 2 day old deleted Reddit post affected the final outcome in any way. It has just cast unnecessary aspersions on Keep voters.---Petextrodon (talk) 12:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. Keep was a reasonable close for this discussion. No consensus would have also been a reasonable close, and possibly a better close, but that has no impact on the end result. Many of the delete votes focused on the the article having an inappropriate title or a non-neutral point of view. Those are WP:SURMOUNTABLE problems that can be addressed via editing. Merging may be an appropriate outcome as well, and a merge discussion is already in progress. Frank Anchor 18:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse (uninvolved) as the right close to what the closer acknowledged was a messy AFD. By my count, the headcount was 18 Keep and 13 Delete. AFD is not a headcount, but the headcount cannot be ignored, and, as the closer noted, the later contributions were stronger and were trending Keep:
  • • The argument that there was no Tamil genocide misses the point. The question is whether reliable sources discuss a Tamil genocide, so that the topic satisfies general notability, and it was shown that reliable sources do discuss a Tamil genocide.
    • There were civility violations in this AFD that should be reported at Arbitration Enforcement.
    • Liz noted that any close, whether Keep, No Consensus, or Delete, would almost certainly be taken to DRV. That is further evidence that civility has broken down, and that sanctions may be necessary. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse and commend Liz for an excellent close. Liz has accurately discarded irrelevant arguments, and--despite not being required to--identified potential fixes for the things many !voters find objectionable but are fixable by editing and hence not deletion criteria. Jclemens (talk) 20:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Activity on Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Tamil genocide strongly suggests it's being actively canvassed right now. —Cryptic 21:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - The appellant, User: Abhishek0831996, should get some sort of low-quality prize for one of the sillier arguments that I have seen in years at Deletion Review. They said: This is contrary to the fact that admins should be so confident about their closure that they should not expect a DRV with regards to their closure. That makes no sense with regard to contentious topics. I think that a closer should be sufficiently confident of their closure that they should be reasonably sure that their close will be endorsed by DRV. But that isn't what the appellant said. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Completely agree. The closer is so experienced that they know any close they would have made on this topic would likely have wound up here at DRV. SportingFlyer T·C 07:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  +1 ... quite aside from that no closure is proof against rejectionists who refuse to accept a decision that goes against their preference, as we've seen many times at DRV, or indeed on Wikipedia generally. (Never mind contrary to what "fact?" I don't myself phrase my own suppositions or wishlists as inerrant fact. They've ignored me before when I asked this question, but User: Abhishek0831996, how about you show us a link stating your phrasing as official guidance to closers?) Ravenswing 09:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (uninvolved) I spent some time on this difficult discussion as if I were closing it on my own and came to basically the same conclusion as Liz: as flawed as this article's creation process was, considering that it was close to a WP:G5, those wanting to keep the article made it pretty clear the topic passed WP:GNG, and no specific version of WP:NOT to override the GNG argument was really argued anywhere in the discussion. I also wound up conservatively completely discarding a lot of keep !votes and came to the same conclusion. Good close. SportingFlyer T·C 07:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn (involved in Afd) There is enough evidence provided above that a lot of off-wiki canvassing happened to keep the sock's creation.[8][9] Closing it as keep is totally over the top. Azuredivay (talk) 09:42, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Why do delete voters think mentioning it was created by a sock is of any relevance, given that a lot of other editors who aren't socks have worked on it since its creation? TarnishedPath^talk 10:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  For the same reason they're shouting Canvassing! Canvassing! and ignore the many Keep proponents who are veteran, neutral editors. If you have facts on your side, argue the facts. If you don't, hammer on any point you can grasp. Ravenswing 07:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

  There were very few established editors who argued for keeping. The majority was a canvassed mass. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:03, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse (involved) clear and fair close. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:12, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

30 May 2024

Krister Isaksen

Krister Isaksen (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

A footballer deleted for failing two guidelines, GNG and NFOOTBALL. The second is depecrated and now irrelevant, and regarding the first one, there was little participation and no WP:BEFORE was performed whatsoever. An actual search yields lots of GNG.

Above all, Isaksen is remembered for scoring a crucial goal that altered the relegation battle in the 1996 Eliteserien. This received significant coverage, both regarding him as a player and also venturing into his personal life (full pages or double spreads in all major newspapers). Moreover, this event has gained coverage several decades later, fulfilling WP:SUSTAINED. Furthermore, there are other key moments in his career, such as scoring a goal in a cup semi-final that sent his club to the cup final. There is also significant coverage in newspapers from the places he grew up, Øst-Finnmark and Kongsberg, many years after he moved from those areas.

Of course, this should be restored to draft space and worked on there. Geschichte (talk) 09:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse original close but allow recreation. Firstly, this is a flawed appeal, as the appellant skipped step #2 of WP:DELREVD - notifying the AfD closer. Secondly, whether this footballer is "remembered for scoring a crucial goal" or not is immaterial. NFOOTBALL was the SNG in force at the time of this AfD. NSPORTS2022 was only codified the following year. I do note, however, that one of the three participants in that AfD - Rondolinda - was indef-blocked from projectspace a few months later due to their conduct on AfDs. If there now are sources satisfying GNG, WP:REFUND would be the right venue for this request. Owen× ☎ 10:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Restore to draftspace per request. Let's not let bureaucracy get in the way of improving the encyclopaedia. Thryduulf (talk) 12:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. Encourage draftification, and follow advice at WP:THREE on establishing that the subject is notable. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse but restore to draft, this is an old AfD and current standards do not mean a prior one was wrong. Was your request for the draft declined? Unclear why we're here. Star Mississippi 13:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Restore to draftspace. The close was correct based on information known at the time. However, with delete voter Rondolinda sanctioned for rush-copy-and-pasting votes, their vote can not be taken seriously and therefore can retroactively be removed. This is no longer a WP:QUORUM and recreation must be allowed based on any good-faith request (including this DRV). Restoring to draftspace will allow Geschichte or any other interested user the time to incorporate appropriate sources into the draft version before a return to mainspace. Frank Anchor 13:21, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse and Restore draft as per discussion here. I think (but don't know) that the answer to User:Star Mississippi's question is that some editors know about Deletion Review and don't know about Requests for Undeletion. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Restore draft I can't see the current version of the page, but if it doesn't pass WP:GNG it should be draftified. SportingFlyer T·C 16:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
  • SportingFlyer: I have temporarily undeleted so you and others can view. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 19:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

    Thanks! I think we can move that straight back into mainspace, to be honest, even if I'd like to see an additional accessible source to make sure it doesn't get deleted again. SportingFlyer T·C 19:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse but restore to draft, agree with the above comment that we should not let bureaucracy stand in the way of improving the encyclopedia, but I'm also concerned that this still won't be enough. Aside from the fact that it is a shame sources are not being presented here to show WP:SIGCOV, I am concerned that:

1. the crucial goal is a case of WP:BLP1E regardless of whether people are still talking about it.
2. other events such as him scoring a goal here or there will be passing mentions and we need to be careful of WP:SYNTH by taking a lot of small mentions as being wider significant coverage
3. other mentions may well be too local, or just routine transfer talk.
4. although not essential, it is disappointing that no online sources are provided for this player. This makes coverage difficult to assess, so I would like to see that if possible

Overall, if this is recreated, I would like this to go through a proper articles for creation process to get more independent eyes on the depth of coverage, especially given that he is now retired. For example, if this important goal is still being discussed, to justify an article on the scorer we would not only neede to see evidence of continued discussion, but that the discussion is in depth, i.e. part of a wider reflection on his career or something like that where he is the main subject, not his club or the match or that season. Fenix down (talk) 09:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Most AfC reviewers wouldn't put it through the rigourous process you're suggesting, though. If I saw it at AfC and it hadn't already been sent to AfD I'd probably pass it as "likely to pass an AfD." SportingFlyer T·C 06:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

29 May 2024

Various redirects to List of Argentine films of 1995

No te mueras sin decirme adónde vas (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

No te mueras sin decirme adonde vas (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Mariposa china (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Historia del cine argentino (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Noches aticas (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Noches áticas (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Ninos envueltos (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

La Nave de los locos (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Deleted with the rationale "redirect to a list with no other useful information beyond a repetition of the name" which is clearly not a WP:CSD; Template:R to list entry are fairly common in fact many of which offer minimal information. Of course sometimes these are deleted at WP:RFD, but they should receive a discussion where the community has an opportunity to review before being deleted. Deleting admin has not responded to the request for undeletion, as such I am bringing this here. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:FD37:E902:E246:5D16 (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:FILM has an established consensus that film titles should not be mere redirects to "list of films of YYYY lists". For various reasons, the titles in Category:Argentine film redirects are not helpful; sometimes the title is not actually present in the list it's been redirected to at all; sometimes it is present and linked as a recursive redirect right back to the same page you're on; sometimes it's present in the list but links a different spelling or capitalization of the same title so it redlinks out from the page; sometimes it's been linked to the wrong list and the film was actually released in a different year; and there's been more than one case identified where the primary topic for a title wasn't actually a film at all, such as Malevo, a dance troupe who you've seen on Got Talent, but whose name was being coopted as a "film-redirected-to-list" whose existence was unverifiable (well, there was a film of that title, but not in the year the title was redirecting to or even a year in the same decade, and certainly not a film that would have held primary topic status over the dancers.)

The helpfulness of such redirects has already been discussed by NFILM, where a consensus was established that they are not valuable, and no further input from new participants (especially anonymous IPs) is either needed or desired, as all the relevant issues have already been hashed out. And RFD has already indicated that they don't want to see every last one of these for days and days of discussion, and has directed me that I am justified in acting boldly on a case-by-case basis after assessing the value and utility and "is there another place this could be redirected to instead of this bad target" reuseability of these redirects.

So no, I'm not taking any clapback from any anons about it, because this has all already been hashed out by active editors. Bearcat (talk) 00:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The community hasn't authorized you, or whoever "they" at NFILM are, to delete these pages by fiat. You can bring them to RFD like anybody else. —Cryptic 01:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The last time I brought a batch of them to RFD, I most certainly was explicitly told to just be bold with them instead of bringing them to RFD over and over again. And where else would one discuss such an issue as the utility of content, besides the WikiProject for that subject area? Bearcat (talk) 01:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

As an administrator you are expected to know deletion policy, if you think a handful of people saying you should be bold in a single RFD overrides the strong global consensus the community has embodied at WP:CSD then you should seriously consider refraining from use of the deletion tool until you have refamiliarized yourself with community expectations. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:FD37:E902:E246:5D16 (talk) 01:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

We have a phrase for administrators who "are bold" with deletion, with ample precedent. That phrase is "desysopped for cause". —Cryptic 01:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

WikiProjects have no special power over content, and any user whether registered or unregistered explicitly has a right to request an explanation for administrative actions. If you believe the pages should be speediable then go to WT:CSD and get a consensus for it, but neither you, me, nor anyone else is above deletion policy. Furthermore speedy deletion is fundamentally not the place for boldness, and I would seriously reconsider recalibrating your approach to use of the deletion tool. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:FD37:E902:E246:5D16 (talk) 01:21, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

WikiProjects most certainly do have the authority to establish a consensus around how to deal with the issues that crop up in their domains of expertise, such as "no, film titles that do not have articles should not be summarily redirected to mere lists of films" and/or "no, we do not need to individually rediscuss each separate reiteration of the same thing we've already gone over 200 times, and already established a clear consensus against, before". Bearcat (talk) 01:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

They in fact do not, and you have no policy basis for that claim. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS cannot override policy. Go to WT:CSD and get policy changed, but you are not allowed to ignore deletion policy. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:FD37:E902:E246:5D16 (talk) 01:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I have no reason to doubt Bearcat's claim that such deletions were debated and follow consensus reached at a WikiProject. But then why not enshrine this consensus as a new CSD:R5? I'm not a fan of policy-by-oral-tradition or unwritten rules, and having this one documented would allow other admins to apply it consistently. Personally, I see no value in having redirects to a list that contains nothing beyond the titles, but I don't want the fate of such a redirect to depend on whether the admin looking at it knows about some debate that took place on NFILM at some point in the past.

I also find the dismissive tone when dealing with anon appellants to be in poor taste at best, and harmful in this case. This particular anon - I think of them as the Vigilant Virginian - has a history here at DRV. They are well versed in our policy, guidelines and common practices. The cases they bring here are never tendentious or vexatious. Most end in overturning an admin's out-of-process action, and more importantly, in fostering discussion about such practices. Dismissing this anon's cases out of hand will deprive us of the services of a diligent watchdog. Owen× ☎ 11:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn and take to RfD, which exists for this purpose. Just because one group has an opinion you're following, doesn't mean it's policy. Valid question by an established IP and to be honest, where a consensus was established that they are not valuable, and no further input from new participants (especially anonymous IPs) is either needed or desired, is a surprising comment from you, Bearcat. Star Mississippi 12:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn out-of-process speedy deletion that does not fall under the criteria. It probably should be criteria for speedy deletion and I would support a discussion to add this, per OwenX above (such a discussion could highlight any potential setbacks to adding a blanket statement like redirect to a list with no other useful information beyond a repetition of the name). However, this was not in CSD at the time of deletion therefore the only remedy for deletion of these articles is through RFD (and I would strongly recommend these titles NOT be bundled in the same RFD so each can be decided on its own merits). Frank Anchor 14:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn the out-of-process speedy deletions that don't even have a speedy deletion code, and optionally send to RFD:
  • • Speedy deletions are and should be limited to reasons that have guidelines for speedy deletion. They should not be based on undocumented or informally documented vague waves.
    • The editors at RFD were out of line if they told any admin to act boldly to make these deletions without discussion. They didn't even really make maintaining the encyclopedia easier, because the discussion that they tried to avoid at RFD is being discussed instead at DRV.
    • The editors at the film project were sloppy. If they didn't want these redirects, they could have and should have implemented a guideline, and the guideline could be approved by RFC, and then it wouldn't be a local consensus but a consensus.
    • Alternatively, as noted, there can be a new CSD code R5, "redirect to a list with no other useful information beyond a repetition of the name". That also wouldn't be a local consensus but a consensus.
    • I disagree about deleting the redirects, anyway. Redirects are cheap, and I don't think that redirects to lists should be deleted. But we can discuss that in the RFC at the CSD talk page.
    • I mostly agree with User:Bearcat about not wanting clapback from unregistered editors. But User:Cryptic and User:OwenX and User:Star Mississippi and User:Frank Anchor are not unregistered editors.
    • The unregistered editor should register an account. But that is not the issue. Out-of-process deletions are the issue.
    • If the editors at RFD don't want to waste their time on diddly deletions of redirects, they don't need to take part in RFD. There are many other sorts of gnome tasks.
    • Bearcat acted in good faith but was given sloppy instructions. Restore the out-of-process deletions. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'm unclear on how the identity of the appellant or their status vis-à-vis registration comes into play here. If their appeal has merit, it's not "clapback", and if it doesn't, I don't care if they're an Arbcom member. The problem with most anon DRV appeals is that they fail WP:DRVPURPOSE, but so do many appeals from registered editors, and this one clearly does not. What if the four registered users hadn't !voted here - would you then dismiss the case as "clapback"? I think the anon should keep doing what they're doing, which is bring improper deletions to our attention, and that it's none of our business whether they register an account or not. Owen× ☎ 17:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Send to RfD If there's local consensus to delete these, which I'm not aware of (outside of my editing area) and hasn't been linked to in this discussion, then I would actually endorse this deletion. I think threatening a desysop here is ridiculous. However, given these specific titles have generated controversy, the best thing to do here is to send them to RfD, where if Bearcat's deletion rationale was correct, then they'll remain deleted. SportingFlyer T·C 20:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn. Very clearly out of process per above - the deleting admin needs to reacquaint themselves with the speedy deletion policy. Thryduulf (talk) 12:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn. Violation of WP:CSD. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

28 May 2024

File:WBBL05 Cap Logo Heat.svg

File:WBBL05 Cap Logo Heat.svg (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I supported its deletion formerly. However, when I'm back with the articles that it was used (like 2020–21 Brisbane Heat WBBL season, 2022–23 Brisbane Heat WBBL season), I feel something is missing, especially the logo. I'm not sure that contents described in these articles can make readers understand without the logo. Kys5g ^talk! 03:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse: DR isn't really a place to try to re-argue an FFD per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE, and it's not clear how the closer's close might've been incorrect given the "delete" !votes (based on items 14 and 17 of WP:NFC#UUI) posted in the FFD. Perhaps the closer should've been asked about this and given a chance to respond before bringing this up for discussion here since it probably would have saved some time and effort. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse Nonsensical nomination which fails to explain why the close at FfD was allegedly incorrect. As Marchjuly correctly noted above, DRV is not FfD redux. Also noting for the record that Kys5g failed to consult Explicit before jumping straight to DRV. -Fastily 09:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse - The appellant fails to identify any error by the closer. If the appellant is saying, "I changed my mind", that isn't one of the reasons for deletion review. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. No valid reason given for opposing deletion. Stifle (talk) 07:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Ed Winters (closed)

Ed Winters – Nom withdrawn as article was restored to draftspace as requested. Star Mississippi 01:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Ed Winters (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore) Withdrawing my request based on the advice of editors below. I will request undeletion/draftification at WP:REFUND shortly. Gottagotospace (talk) 17:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Since the deletion discussion in 2020, the subject has become more notable and received more media coverage, and I believe he now meets notability guidelines. Even from a three-minute Google search, I found plenty: https://epigram.org.uk/veganism-is-about-challenging-our-normality-i/ https://www.brandeis.edu/cges/news-events/spring-2021/210406_earthling_ed.html https://www.theblairpartnership.com/clients/ed-winters-earthling-ed/ https://www.richroll.com/podcast/ed-winters-670/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/10/20/earthling-ed/ https://www.bristol247.com/culture/books/vegan-activist-and-author-ed-winters-explains-how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater/ https://uk.news.yahoo.com/vegan-propaganda-author-ed-winters-082852730.html?guccounter=1 https://indico.cern.ch/event/1175627/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnBtYtuYxJ0 https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/mar/05/vegan-bros-busting-myth-that-real-men-eat-meat https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/sep/13/the-case-against-pets-is-it-time-to-give-up-our-cats-and-dogs I do admit I'm a little biased because I am a vegan myself, but I'm unbiased enough to know not every animal rights activist is notable enough to have their own article. Ed isn't even my favorite vegan activist (my favorite is someone who is not notable enough to get her own article yet), but I recognize that Ed is one of the most prominent modern vegan activists. I can provide more information if requested, but I think this is enough to at least start the discussion. Gottagotospace (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I have just notified all editors involved in the 2020 deletion discussion that I opened this deletion review, except those who have been blocked or those who seem to no longer be active on Wikipedia (based on me checking contributions history). Gottagotospace (talk) 14:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC) As far as I can see only about three of these are even RS. Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Also I can't recall what the problems may have been, but the RS are not about him, they just quote him. Thus I am unsure we can write an article about him based on them. Slatersteven (talk) 14:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I think Wikipedia articles about other animal rights activists could be a rough template here, or examples of things that can be covered. For example, see David Olivier, Karen Dawn, Joey Carbstrong, Jack Norris (activist), and other activists in Template:Animal rights. Gottagotospace (talk) 15:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I agree Ed has become more notable ever since the deletion of his article a couple of years ago. If my memory serves right, for the most part I was arguing for the retention of the article based on the available sources back then. If we have more reliable sources (I'm sure we could glean more as in the above list) and if other editors agree with those, I think we can have Ed's article updated and moved to the main space. Cheers. Rasnaboy (talk) 16:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Found some more coverage: https://www.popsci.com/story/health/vegan-zoonotic-diseases-covid-coronavirus/ https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2022/02/why-are-vegans-so-reviled https://cornellsun.com/2019/04/11/speaker-asks-why-do-we-love-dogs-eat-cows-and-wear-sheep/ https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-is-vegan-propaganda-by-ed-winters-review-hmxtxgtv8 https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/rachel-johnson/vegan-youtuber-ed-winters-weighs-in-on-kurt-zoumas-cat-abuse/ https://www.newburytoday.co.uk/news/viral-vegan-activist-plans-school-visit-9295855/ https://www.hot-dinners.com/201910098920/Gastroblog/Latest-news/unity-diner-earthling-ed-wentworth-street-spitalfields https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/ed-winters-vegan-propaganda-32706013 https://www.bigissue.com/culture/books/meet-earthling-ed-the-vegan-debater-and-activist-exposing-lies-of-the-meat-industry/ https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/01/27/every-argument-for-killing-animals-debunked-the-ethical-case-for-veganism https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/01/22/how-can-we-prevent-another-pandemic-go-vegan https://stanforddaily.com/2022/02/02/the-teachers-of-white-plaza/ Yes, I know that not all of the places I have posted links from count as "reliable sources", but some do, and also the other sources are here to show additional coverage of the subject and his activities since the last AfD. Gottagotospace (talk) 15:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Note, even if his book is notable, he may not be. Slatersteven (talk) 15:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Note from closer it's been 4 years since the 2nd AfD (which I closed) and so the sourcing available may very well have changed to establish notability now. This doesn't seem to be about whether or not the consensus of the AfD was correct so I won't say anything further other than to say I will watch this discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Allow recreation. There was nothing wrong with the 2020 close, but the appellant doesn't need our permission to work on a new draft. WP:REFUND would have been a better venue if they want to start work where the deleted version left off. Of course, this source list needs to be trimmed down to meet SIRS. Owen× ☎ 16:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I like your suggestion. Thank you! Do I need to wait for this deletion review to be officially closed first, or can I go over to WP:REFUND right now without waiting? Gottagotospace (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Gottagotospace, you can withdraw your appeal here any time, which will trigger it to be speedily closed with no action. Then you can ask for draftification at WP:REFUND, linking to this DRV to speed things up. With any luck, by this time tomorrow you'll be working on the draft. Owen× ☎ 17:15, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Okay, I will go ahead and withdraw it (I'll post something above) and then head over to WP:REFUND. Thanks! Gottagotospace (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Or you can withdraw here, skip REFUND and start work on a fresh draft right away, if you don't need the old text. Owen× ☎ 17:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Comment - It is not clear whether the appellant is saying that the 2020 close should be overturned, or whether the appellant wants to submit a new article, but apparently the latter. This is mostly a URL Dump, and is about as useful as most URL dumps, and is insulting to the reviewers, because it implies that the appellant is too busy or too important to put the URLs into a real draft. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I apologize for any perceived insult. I certainly did not intend it that way. So what happened was I was about to make a draft article about Ed Winters, and then Wikipedia was like "HOLD UP STOP RIGHT THERE, an article with this title has been deleted before!!!" (obviously paraphrased haha). That's what led me here. I am happy to make a draft, and that was my original intention. This is my first time drafting an article that has previously been deleted, so I opened this deletion review under DRV Purpose 3 to seek consultation. I figured it would be better to seek consultation from other editors (who might spend like 15 minutes participating in this discussion) first, versus me spending 3-4 hours on an article without seeking consultation first and then having it end up immediately deleted or rejected. Gottagotospace (talk) 16:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Comment - I have long disliked DRV Purpose 3, because most of the DRV Purpose 3 cases that we get are where the title has not been salted, and the appellant can simply either submit a draft for review, or create an article subject to AFD, and these appeals ask DRV to give permission to submit a draft for review, when permission is not needed. But I have already lost that battle, and DRV Purpose 3 is still there. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I have long agreed with you on this. At some point the right answer to an AfD that closed with delete (or an equivalent outcome like redirect) is to just write a new article with the new information. That shouldn't be the day after it closes (where it really should come here) but is also, in my opinion, sooner than 4 years after the most recent AfD discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Allow Submission of Draft subject to Articles for Creation. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I have restored this to a draft Draft:Ed Winters, so I guess this can be closed. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

26 May 2024

List of IMAX venues With 15/70 or laser projectors

List of IMAX venues With 15/70 or laser projectors (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

1. no consensus was reached so it should have defaulted to keep. 2. arguments for deletion quoted Wikipedia rules that upon examination did not appear to apply to the article. 3. one primary argument suggested that the article contained original research when it in fact didn't. Travelling nomad1 (talk) 10:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• (Involved as AfD 4 closer, AfD5 nom). Endorse well reasoned read of the discussion although I can also see a N/C. Potentially support draftification per commitment to improve per my comment here and Jonovitch's ideas. Travelling nomad1, the sources you kept adding do not help with notability (and more isn't better) nor do they make the article more useful to the reader. There's a difference between an article about and an index of. An A-Z list of IMAXs linking to their own sites isn't going to work and if that's what you want to create, it would be better offsite. Star Mississippi 13:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• I realize this has been litigated like mad, but I'd still appreciate seeing the article via a temp undelete. List articles can have a lot of reasons for being kept and a lot for being deleted. If the article is a bunch of bluelinks, it probably meets WP:CSC as a navigational aid and the keep !votes would actually have some valid arguments. If not, NOTDIR arguments are probably in the right. My intutition is that a there most certainly can be a reasonable list article under this title. Basically there is a split !vote and judging the strength of those arguments requires seeing the article... Hobit (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks Cryptic! Hobit (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
    • (It was actually Star Mississippi that pushed the button; we both tried to tempundelete within a few seconds of each other, in different orders. —Cryptic 16:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC))

      Teamwork! You also found the DRV blank template while I was hunting for it. Do you (or any others) think it could be added to admin instructions? Star Mississippi 00:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

      Do you mean {{Temporarily undeleted}}? It's already linked from WP:DRV#Temporary undeletion. Where, er, you linked in your restoration log. —Cryptic 00:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

      LOL, oops!

      I was looking in Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions, not following where the breadcrumbs were guiding me. Ignore me (and thank you!) Star Mississippi 02:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• endorse deletion That's a darn impressive bit of work and I might have !voted to keep, but I think the delete arguments are stronger. This really does run into WP:NOTDIR issues. But the work to create it is darn impressive and it will be a shame to have it go. Hopefully someone can copy it over to some other wiki or some other publicly accessible storage location. A link to such a resource from the IMAX article would seem reasonable to me. Hobit (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. After reading the DRVs and discussions I don't think there is any other way this could have been closed, especially considering the blatant canvassing and lack of understanding of our P&Gs by sleeper accounts. JoelleJay (talk) 20:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse, concurring with the closing statement of User:OwenX, that the strength of arguments for Delete was far stronger than the strength of arguments for Keep:
  • • I thank User:Hobit for requesting temp undeletion, and User:Cryptic for temp undeleting.
    • I concur with User:Hobit that this is a useful list, although it is not an encyclopedic list. It should be hosted somewhere, but not in Wikipedia. It may be kept in draft space, but there should be no guarantee that it can be promoted back to article space via AFC or otherwise.
    • DRV is not a conduct forum. That is, DRV is not ANI round 0. However, there are conduct violations going on, including in these lists, in AFD, and in DRV. The creation of this article with this disambiguated title was disruptive, an intentional attempt to game the system, and the rule against gaming the system identifies it as disruptive editing. Any future conduct violations should be taken to ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:41, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I concur with above endorse !votes but would prefer this list to be draftified as opposed to deleted; I think with considerable work this article could become a reasonable dab or list page. Happily888 (talk) 04:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. The policy-based arguements citing WP:NOTDIR were not successfully refuted. Stifle (talk) 07:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)