Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

Formerly untitled/upcoming media

Before films, TV shows, video games, and books receive a title or get released, their articles/drafts are usually titled Untitled _____ film, Upcoming _____ film, _____ (upcoming film), etc. In most cases, a redirect is left behind at those titles once that project receives a title or is released, which is misleading, unhelpful, and useless to readers since the project in question is no longer untitled or upcoming. These redirects are often taken to RfD ([1], [2]), and virtually all of those discussions end with a "delete" outcome, demonstrating clear consensus. I propose that there be a new speedy deletion criterion for redirects with the word "untitled" or "upcoming" which point to works that are no longer untitled or upcoming. Exceptions should be made for redirects with a non-trivial page history, per WP:CSD § Other issues with redirects, as well as redirects with incoming links. Page views should not be a problem here, as many redirects that are speedily deleted have a fair number of page views. Please note that a similar but broader proposal was made two years ago, which received minimal response. I believe this new proposal addresses most of the sole objector's concerns. Pinging @Steel1943, who gave me this idea at a recent RfD discussion. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:47, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

How frequent is this, really? There's currently 717 redirects in mainspace starting with 'Untitled ' or 'Upcoming ' or containing '(untitled' or '(upcoming', and 95 mainspace pages with such titles deleted so far this year. (Are there any major patterns I'm missing?) Extending the time cutoff for deleted redirects back to the start of 2020 only increases the count to 312, so if anything it's higher than typical this year. I'm a lot more comfortable with proposed new criteria that would average at least two or three deletions per day; the number of current criteria already makes for high cognitive load. —Cryptic 22:08, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cryptic: You'd be surprised: I've been dealing with these for almost a decade now, and I'd say on average, there's about 25-50 created a year that have this issue. Steel1943 (talk) 22:24, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, yes - I just finished saying there's been 312 deleted in about the last 2⅔ years, so 117 a year. That doesn't seem like it's overburdening RFD, even if nominations there didn't default to delete and even if they couldn't be mass-nominated once or twice a year. Something on the order of 750-1000 such redirects per year very well could. —Cryptic 22:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't want to seem dismissive; I just want to be sure I'm not underestimating the problem. Even extending the pattern to "any title containing 'ntitled' or 'pcoming' anywhere" only increases the count by about 10%, and there's some glaring false positives in there like I am entitled to my opinion. —Cryptic 22:43, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cryptic: Yeah, I read only a part of your comment, then got distracted with real life matters and didn't correct myself. And agreed, I may have been pinged above, but some of the recent situations I have found where it's not so cut and dry make me wonder, and am on the fence a bit, more for support but still not sure. Steel1943 (talk) 23:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I understand that this is just your opinion, but "averages two or three deletions per day" is not a requirement for speedy deletion criteria. The point of speedy deletion is so we don't need to waste other editors' time with RfDs, and per the search results I linked there has already been at least a dozen of these this year alone. Seems like a big waste of time to me. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:18, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Point three of the WP:NEWCSD requirements, included in the orange box at the top of this page, is "Frequent" which says in part If a situation arises only rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and fairer to delete it with one of the other methods instead.. There is no objective definition of what is and isn't "frequent", but I'm leaning towards agreeing with Cryptic that this isn't. It isn't worth spending much time discussing this imo though as the proposal as written unambiguously fails point 2 (uncontestable) and I can't think of any way of writing an objective (point 1) criterion that doesn't. Thryduulf (talk) 12:58, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. As I commented on one recent discussion, these do generally get deleted but it is important that they are not deleted too soon, so that while people still look for them that the untitled/upcoming title they are taken to the content (one of the main reason why we routinely keep redirects from moves). How long this is varies considerably from a few weeks to many months - I've never worked out a pattern; so it requires analysis of page views, incoming links, etc. that make them completely unsuitable for speedy deletion. Thryduulf (talk) 22:36, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the only part of your concerns I didn't address, because I really don't see why someone would include "upcoming" or "untitled" in a search term if a work has been already released or gotten a title, even if it just happened the day before. Also remember, if one types in a non-existent page title into the search bar, it doesn't take you to the redlink, it takes you to the search results page. Shouldn't be a problem for readers. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:18, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I really don't see why someone would include "upcoming" or "untitled" in a search term if a work has been already released or gotten a title there are multiple reasons someone might do this, for example:

• They don't know it now has a release date and/or title
• They know it's got a date/title but don't know or don't remember what it is
• They know it has a date/title and what it is but they don't know that our article has been moved
• They know or guess that our article has been moved but don't know what title it's been moved to (the more common the title the more likely this is)
• They have followed a link that hasn't been updated yet, this might be from another website, a search engine or bookmark

Also remember, if one types in a non-existent page title into the search bar, it doesn't take you to the redlink, it takes you to the search results page. the internal search engine is only one of many ways people use to find Wikipedia content. Depending on the combination of which method you use, the device/browser you are using and whether you have permission to create a page at that title you will get either

• Search results
• A message inviting you to create a page and/or search (search results are 1-2 clicks away)
• The page creation editing interface (you have to explicitly type your search in the search box, or use your other preferred method of searching Wikipedia, there are many)

It is also far from guaranteed that search results will include the relevant page, particularly as the film will no longer be untitled and/or upcomming so those words will not be in the prose. Remember also that search engines not being updated is one reason that you might have arrived here in the first place. Thryduulf (talk) 08:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Okay, would you support this proposal if we added a "transition period" of 30 days before speedy deletion can occur? I think 30 days is reasonable enough. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:15, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

No, because I've noted at least twice previously how long people continue to use a redirect varies from a couple of weeks to many months with no predictable pattern. The redirects need to be kept for at least as long as they get significant amount of use, and it's simply not possible to put a numerical value on that which will always be correct, regardless of what value you choose. "Significant" is (and can only be) a subjective criterion as well as it includes considerations beyond pure numbers, such as how the figures compare with the target, e.g. if it's only getting a few hits but those are a substantial proportion of the target's viewing figures and/or the pattern of views strongly correlates with the pattern of views for the target then it's clear that it's still a significant positive for the encyclopaedia, whereas a different redirect with the same number of views but which are a tiny fraction of the target's views and there is no correlation in viewing patterns is probably providing much less benefit. I still cannot think of a way to make a speedy deletion criterion for these redirects that meets both the objective and uncontestable requirements, and others remain unconvinced it meets the frequency requirement. Thryduulf (talk) 19:49, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Page views tends to be the most common objection on these RfD discussions, but in the end they still close as delete. The consensus is clear: it doesn't matter even if a redirect gets "significant" views, in the end it's misleading and should be deleted. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:50, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion is explicitly only for matters that are not controversial - i.e. very nearly everybody agrees that everything that could be deleted by a criterion should be deleted. This is simply not the case for these redirects, for the reasons I've tried to explain to you multiple times already. Thryduulf (talk) 21:35, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Film, WikiProject Television, WikiProject Video games, and WikiProject Books have been notified of this discussion. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Not convinced this is frequent enough, and sometimes these need retargetting, not deletion. Better to go through RfD. —Kusma (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose in case anyone is counting bolded votes. —Kusma (talk) 15:34, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

...And tagged another 105: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 12#Even more "upcoming" no longer "upcoming". Turns out there are a lot of these (a lot more than even the 105), extending even from as early as 2019. Steel1943 (talk) 04:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Which could have been avoided if this were a speedy deletion criterion. And right now, there's also this discussion, this discussion, this, and this one, and this, and this, this, this, this, this, and this. Is that not "frequent" enough?? These discussions are just wasting everyone's time. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Except they aren't, because not all of them should be deleted (now), let alone speedily. One I spot checked was used over 5000 times in the last 30 days. This still fails the uncontestable requirement. Thryduulf (talk) 11:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Not convinced that this can be rapidly, objectively, decisively and correctly assessed, hence likely failing 1 and 2. Frequent? Unconvinced, fails 3. Criterion 4 is probably Ok. But the real reason I'm opposing this is the potential for administrators failing to understand the nuances of the criterion and misapplying it as if it was making WP:CRYSTAL into a CSD criterion. Hard pass. Jclemens (talk) 05:20, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• List of appropriately-named redirects. As Jclemens says, I suspect that if this passed, many of the redirects appearing early on it would end up deleted if somebody tagged them, despite pointing to works that were actually released untitled. —Cryptic 05:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  The proposed wording already makes it clear that only redirects that point to works no longer untitled or upcoming apply. Not works that remain untitled, or are intentionally untitled, or have "untitled" as part of the title, or to anything else. This should be clear to InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  In theory, you are right. In practice... Look, I've watched DRV for years, and seen what seems to be every possible misapplication of a CSD criteria. This is particularly dangerous because no non-admin can see anything definitively wrong, and so reporting of CSD abuses is quite scarce. I'd rather MfD kept the load. Jclemens (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Note. user:InfiniteNexus has advertised this proposal on every current nomination at RfD (and possibly elsewhere). The notices are neutral so I have to assume good faith, but anyone evaluating consensus should be aware of this. Thryduulf (talk) 17:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  This is fully compliant with WP:APPNOTE, along the lines of The talk page of one or more directly related articles. In the interest of transparency, I have not linked this discussion to any other places other than the ones I've linked above and the WikiProjects I listed earlier. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  Oh, and it looks like Steel1943 also dropped a link at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 30#More "upcoming" no longer "upcoming" the other day, which is now closed (as snow delete, unsurprisingly). InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  @InfiniteNexus: My mention on there was in direct response to an editor who stated they were considering proposing a CSD like this, so that was not a problem. However, Thryduulf has a point here with their concern: Repeated mentions of this discussion on multiple pages, and even in several sections on the same page, could be interpreted as WP:CANVASSING, so you may want to lay off doing that any more. If you really desire to advertise this discussion, consider doing it the "allowed" way: WP:RFC. Steel1943 (talk) 20:40, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  I genuinely believe the notifications I posted fall under WP:APPNOTE, but since there have been concerns from editors I'll hold off on more of those. I don't think an RfC is needed at this point, but I'm also open to that. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment: @InfiniteNexus: In retrospect, this discussion may have been better/clearer if it only included the "upcoming" titles and not have been bundled with the "untitled" titles. Steel1943 (talk) 18:24, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that would address Thryduulf's "still has value after some time" concern. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support, although it may be better to call it "placeholder" redirects to exclude the genuine Untitled titles and include some other placeholder redirects such as "Next election" for elections that have already passed. Even the latest discussion is generating a lot of support for deletion. The only thing "saving" (and I'm using that word generously) some of these is pageviews. I would support this either way, but include a clause that they have to not have significant pageviews to delete and we'd get to where we're at 100% that are routinely deleted at RfD. That would save some significant time at RfD moving forward, which is a good thing. -- Tavix ^(talk) 18:29, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  Do you have an objective, uncontestable definition of "significant pageviews"? Thryduulf (talk) 21:33, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'll defer to you because this is an effort to accommodate your objections. Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 12#Even more "upcoming" no longer "upcoming" offers a big hint on what you consider to be significant, and I would be okay with something in that neighborhood. -- Tavix ^(talk) 21:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think I can sum up what I consider to be significant in simple, objective terms because it is a combination of the number of views over time, the pattern of those views (which influences the relevant time period), how long since it ceased to be untitled/upcoming and, when that is unclear, other factors such as how long since the page was moved and the pattern of views the target page gets. Even then the number of "weak" !votes and frequency of words like "probably" and "likely" in my comments should give you a clue that it's often a subjective judgement. Extremes like no views in 6 months or multiple hundreds in the last week are objectively no longer useful and still useful respectively, but the grey area in the middle is huge. Thryduulf (talk) 23:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  I've stricken the pageview suggestion in favor of the 30-day grace period that has gathered momentum below. -- Tavix ^(talk) 13:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I think this discussion is missing the point that these pages should ideally not be created in the first place (or should be created more sparingly). The simple fact is that if someone, whether by a bookmark, an external link etc, links to a page on Wikipedia, then any pagemove of that page will not update any links. Unless there is some drastic change in the technology of Wikipedia this isn't going to change. Taking the attitude that it's not our problem if external links are broken is (in my opinion) missing the entire point of wikipedia, as of course nothing is anyone's problem in a voluntary project, so why should we fix factual errors or misspellings, etc? I think there needs to be an effort to choose titles which will either be more permanent (Untitled fourth Matrix film for example is at least completely unambiguous) , or have some other logical place they can be redirected to while not needed (eg Next Australian federal election could target List of Australian federal elections or Elections in Australia or ideally a section of an article explaining the procedure for determining when the next election will be). A7V2 (talk) 00:17, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  It's certainly not uncommon to retarget Next... redirects to more permanent targets wherever possible, and something I recommend when they come to RfD if I can find an appropriate target. It's not always possible though, especially with elections that don't happen on a predictable schedule (e.g. party leadership elections).

  I agree that "upcoming" and "untitled" pages should be better titled where possible, indeed I'd argue that consideration should be made of not creating a stand-alone article until the work has a title, but this isn't really a speedy deletion issue. Thryduulf (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support Please do this, it would be deeply helpful for many many franchise films which often start of in draftspace or mainspace as "Upcoming/untitled Foo film" before being named and released which means the space needs reusing quite often.★Trekker (talk) 13:54, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support. Hours of effort are often wasted at RfD going over the same arguments. I don't have sympathy for the view that deleting these redirects will break external links: users following those links will get there in the end via Wikipedia Search. 30 days after release sounds about right to me. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support with a 30-day grace period. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 22:44, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support we should not be keeping upcoming redirects to no longer upcoming events/media. (t · c) buidhe 17:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
• People's opinions as to whether these should be deleted are irrelevant here. What matters is whether there is in fact consensus to delete them. as the actual wording of "uncontestable" says. Thus, if Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 19#Even more "upcoming" no longer "upcoming" is closed as delete, then a speedy deletion criterion should be enacted, and if not it shouldn't be. This discussion is turning in large part into a rehash of that one. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  Whether that discussion closes as delete or not, that the deletion was contested by a significant proportion of commenters means that this cannot meet the incontestable requirement for a new speedy deletion criterion, even if we assume that it meets the frequency requirement (which has met significant opposition here). Thryduulf (talk) 22:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  Huh? What uncontestable actually says is It must be the case that almost all pages that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to consensus. Not that said discussions have to be uncontroversial, only that they have to come to a consensus to delete. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  Only when the discussions always reach a very clear uncontroversial consensus is it possible to be certain that the consensus will always be to delete because speedy deletion is only for the most obvious cases where deletion will always be uncontroversial. Thryduulf (talk) 09:23, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  And now that discussion has been closed by BD2412:

The result of the discussion was delete. It is clear at this point that there is a consensus to delete "upcoming" redirects where there is no project by that name that is upcoming. Relisting has only solidified this consensus, and there is no reasonable prospect that further discussion will yield a different outcome.

That sums up the community's opinion of these redirects. I rest my case. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I've challenged that closure on BD2412's talk page as I can only see a consensus to delete if all that has been done is count noses. Per other comments here from myself and others, even if the closure stands it does not make this a viable speedy deletion criterion.

Thryduulf (talk) 09:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support with some grace period. The untitled redirect is valid until the proper title is announced, but doesn't become immediately irrelevant. It's something that loses meaning with time. Jontesta (talk) 00:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom and discussion. If done correctly, it should easy pass all four CSD criteria, especially by establishing a solid timeframe (30 days is fine, or that can be discussed further). TNstingray (talk) 12:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support. I'd say if there needs to be a 30-day threshold sounds reasonable. For "upcoming", I think the threshold should be for after the initial "non-festival exclusive" commercial release of the subject in any region, unless there end up being no commercial release of the subject. In other words, the 30-day threshold starts immediate after any commercial release in any region ... unless it never happens, then it's 30 days after any release. For "untitled", maybe the 30-day threshold may apply 30 days after the subject is moved from the "untitled" title. Steel1943 (talk) 03:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  Your suggested criteria is complicated enough that it would take a discussion to figure out if the redirect meets it, and at that point, might as well do RfD Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:46, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  Well, it's just an idea of what the proposed "30-day threshold" should represent since no editor had attempted to define it yet. Otherwise, yeah, it's unclear what it was supposed to mean or represent. But, by all means, if you have a better idea of how to define a "30-day threshold" for this, by all means feel free to do so. Steel1943 (talk) 14:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  We can determine the exact definition of a "30-day grace period" after the proposal passes, if ever. Right now, I believe there's general agreement for "30 days after a work releases" or "30 days after a work gets an actual title". We can wait to discuss anything more specific than that, i.e. what counts as a work being released, etc. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support Once it is no longer upcoming/untitled, there is no purpose to retaining old redirects. A short grace period is acceptable. ValarianB (talk) 11:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose I certainly understand the arguments for deleting these redirects, but I haven't actually seen a concrete proposal that would be suitable as a speedy deletion criteria. A one-size-fits-all approach will unfortunately rarely work here. Some works get tons of hype during that upcoming phase, while the announcement of the actual title is not heavily promoted, for example. Some works remain upcoming for a very long time (more than a decade sometimes) without a title. Some works are rarely known by their actual title. All of these things require discussion to determine if a deletion is appropriate, and that's what RfD is for. While this is somewhat common, it's not common enough to cause RfD to fail to function, so overall, it's best not to create this criteria. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:51, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  Some works get tons of hype during that upcoming phase, while the announcement of the actual title is not heavily promoted, for example. Some works remain upcoming for a very long time (more than a decade sometimes) without a title. Some works are rarely known by their actual title. – I don't understand what you mean by this. Nobody uses "Untitled _____" or "Upcoming _____" other than Wikipedia articles for formality purposes, they would use colloquial names such as "Joker 2" over "Untitled Joker sequel".

  While this is somewhat common, it's not common enough to cause RfD to fail to function – it's not causing RfD to "fail to function", but each of those almost-monthly discussions waste hours and hours of time while editors repeat the same old arguments before the redirects are unceremoniously deleted. This is exactly what is happening with all of the most recent discussions I linked above. Those hours pile into days, weeks, and months of wasted time and effort over something there is already consensus for.

  InfiniteNexus (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  If days, weeks, and months of time are wasted on these, then the only explanation is that these redirects are contestable and thus a terrible fit for a speedy deletion criterion. Redirects nominated for deletion at RFD default to delete; the only person that needs spend any time at all for a truly uncontestable deletion of a redirect is the person nominating it. —Cryptic 17:50, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  As you're aware, redirects nominated to RfD don't get deleted immediately, there's a waiting period. This waiting period is what's time-wasting. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  That's not what "speedy" in "Criteria for speedy deletion" means. —Cryptic 18:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  I don't know what you mean by that. Nominating these redirects to RfD is a waste of time. Speedy deletion bypasses this process. Consensus is so clear at this point that no discussion is needed. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support. As to Steel1943's good point about definitions, I would suggest something like Time-basedGeneric placeholder redirects that are no longer accurate ("Upcoming ____ season", "Untitled ____ movie", etc.) to articles about films, TV shows, or other media, where the work was commercially released more than 30 days ago.<ref>If there is any dispute as to the work's release status, or if the work's commercial release has been cancelled, the redirect should be taken to [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion]] instead. Note that this criterion does not cover {{em|non}}-placeholder redirects like {{-r|Untitled goose game}}.</ref> My reasoning is, if the release is cancelled, there may be nuances requiring further review, or at least figuring out what the right waiting period is in a given case. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 14:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC) ed. 19:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  How does "Untitled Joker sequel" (which is held up above as obviously deletable) fit this wording any better than "Joker 2"? The latter seems more "time-based" to me, even after following this discussion; it certainly will to admins clearing out CAT:CSD and looking at each tagged page for a minute or less, let alone those that clear out the category with Twinkle. —Cryptic 17:50, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  The proposed criterion should only apply to redirects with the word "untitled" or "upcoming". Joker 2 will always be accurate and should not be deleted. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  Then this wording, and every other wording so much as implied above, is unsuitable. —Cryptic 18:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Cryptic: Does the above change address your concern? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  It's hard to come up with a more generic placeholder name for an unreleased movie sequel than "<moviename> 2".

  Virtually all of the discussion and examples above include either "upcoming" or "untitled" somewhere in the redirect name. Why not make that an explicit requirement of the proposed criterion? Are there any other remotely common generic placeholders that make it worth contorting the wording to include? —Cryptic 20:53, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think it's best practice to make a CSD tied to specific words like that. Ideally a CSD should refer to a distinct concep. I don't see Joker 2 as a "generic placeholder redirect that [is] no longer accurate", and don't foresee other admins seeing it that way, but if there really is that much concern about that one edge case: {{xt|''Upcoming ____ season''}}, {{xt|''Untitled ____ movie''}}, etc.; but {{em|not}} speculative, hypothetical, or [[working title|working]] titles like {{!xt|''Movie 2''}} -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:56, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  Unless we're looking to expand the scope of the proposed CSD beyond media (films, TV shows, books, video games, etc.), I don't believe any other "placeholder" names exist aside from Upcoming _____, _____ (upcoming _____), and Untitled _____. _____ 2 is not a placeholder, it's a legitimate alternate name still used colloquially even after that work has an actual title. The original proposed wording at the top of this discussion specifically restricts speedy deletion to these two words. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

• Now oppose given the above discussion has made me unconvinced that the proposal is sufficiently objective. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:57, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

RFC on clarifying G13 and what constitutes "last human edit"

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Option 1 passes. There seems to be wide agreement that adding speedy-deletion tags should not reset the G13 clock. But note also that some editors discourage the manual speedy-deletion tagging of G13-deletable pages in the first place, leaving this to bots. (non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 08:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

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For background, see this recent thread on the Admin's Noticeboard: Are CSD tags edits for the purposes of WP:G13?

The question is: Does a human CSD tagging a draft, in and of itself, count against "have not been edited by a human in six months" of CSD G13? and how do we resolve this paradox? Should we? If so, what should be included?

Option 1: A human tagging a draft does not reset the clock, but anyone (admin or otherwise) removing a CSD tag does.

Option 1 revision text
The edit is shown in green italics
This applies to any pages that have not been edited by a human in six months found in: Draft namespace, Userspace with an {{AFC submission}} template Userspace with no content except the article wizard placeholder text. Redirects are exempt from G13 deletion. Adding a CSD template to a page does not reset the six month clock, but removing a CSD template does. Pages deleted under G13 may be restored upon request by following the procedure at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13.

Option 1.5: Removal of a G13 tag by a user who claims to intend to improve the draft does restart the clock, procedural removal doesn't. (c/o @Animal lover 666)

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Option 2: A human making an "edit to the content of the draft" does reset the clock, but any other kind of edit (e.g. tagging with a CSD, admin actions on that tag) does not. (c/o @Szmenderowiecki)

Option 2 revision text
The edit is shown in green italics
This applies to any pages without a human edit that visibly changes article content in six months. This applies to: Draft namespace, Userspace with an {{AFC submission}} template Userspace with no content except the article wizard placeholder text. Redirects are exempt from G13 deletion. Pages deleted under G13 may be restored upon request by following the procedure at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13. Nominating these pages for speedy deletion or proposed deletion, administrator actions to these nominations, as well as additions of problem tags to these pages without any further action, do not start a new six-month period.

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Option 3: Clarify that any human edit, including a CSD tag, does reset the clock. In essence, humans should not use G13.

Option 3 revision text
The edit is shown in green italics
This applies to any pages that have not been edited by a human in six months found in: Draft namespace, Userspace with an {{AFC submission}} template Userspace with no content except the article wizard placeholder text. Redirects are exempt from G13 deletion. A 'human edit' means that manually adding a CSD template to a page will reset the six month clock. This template should only be used by bots. Pages deleted under G13 may be restored upon request by following the procedure at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13.

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Option 4: Status quo.

Option 4 (status quo) text

This applies to any pages that have not been edited by a human in six months found in: Draft namespace, Userspace with an {{AFC submission}} template Userspace with no content except the article wizard placeholder text. Redirects are exempt from G13 deletion. It was determined that the community consensus in this RfC regarding draft namespace redirects amounted to "there is a clear consensus against deletion of draft namespace redirects. There is a rough consensus against the alternative proposal to delete draft namespace redirects after six months." Pages deleted under G13 may be restored upon request by following the procedure at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13.

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This RFC is an attempt to resolve an ambiguity. There are many thoughts on all sides, and I heavily encourage anyone confused or concerned to read the thread linked above to see if that idea has already been articulated succinctly, and to echo those thoughts, whenever possible. Thanks all!— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Option 1.5 added 02:32, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

How many CSD G13 noms do humans make, anyway?

(@Pppery helpfully answered this question on the original AN thread, copied below.)

I did a database query to look at stats for G13 deletions to see how frequent this is. I found:
~6000 total G13 deletions in September 2022

~500 of them appear to have been tagged by a human. In all but ~30 of those cases the specific human is Hey man im josh

6 of them (Draft:Navi Ferozpurwala, Draft:Helena Maria Carneiro Leão, Draft:Constitution of the World Health Organization, Draft:World Health Organization Executive Board, Draft:World Health Organization Secretariat, Draft:Moritz Pindorek) don't appear to actually meet the criterion by either definition.

* Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 1, as proposer. Option 2 as a close second. I think it makes sense that any admin thinking that a tag does not meet deletion criteria should extend the life of the draft. Same with an author who removes a CSD tag because they want to continue improving. That should reset the clock as well. We certainly could go down a long road of edge cases (e.g. what if an admin removes a tag because it's not 6 months yet, but then you tag when it has been 6 months) but I think that gets far too convoluted, and removes the elegance of the original intention of G13. We should have a policy which removes ambiguity, but does not create more confusion or edge cases. This accomplishes that goal well. It's also basically what we currently do!— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 23:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Again, the biggest argument in favor of doing this is that it is what we currently do in practice, and Option 3 is a literal interpretation that as far as I can tell no one ever thought of until today. Option 2 IMO is not objective enough. Another idea to consider is to exclude edits with the "this is a minor edit" checkbox checked, but I still think Option 1 is better. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• The literal interpretation was in my mind in the original discussions. It is astounding that no one would think of the literal interpretation. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:42, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. There's no real need for humans to tag for G13, but doing so obviously shouldn't reset the clock, per both longstanding practice and common sense. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3. The purpose of G13 was and is to deal with drafts that are otherwise completely ignored. This was motivated by the observation that the tens of thousands of abandoned drafts included BLP and copyrights violations, and that it was impractical to filter them for these violations, that the cost of doing so exceeded the value of the few gems in the dust that would be swept away by G13. To reduce the cost of lost few gems in the dust, processes, including standard well-worded notifications and REFUND/G13 were implemented. Humans tagging G13 undermine these processes, and so are a net negative. Stop it. There is no improvement to Wikipedia by doing this, let alone an IAR deletion reason that undermines the respect of admins respect of WP:CSD policy. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:40, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 tagging something for speedy deletion shouldn't reset the clock because by definition someone who tags something for deletion is happy for it to be deleted. However someone who declines a speedy deletion tag may well object. I could understand if the policy said something about the reason for declining the tag but it's probably better to keep things simple. Hut 8.5 07:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 To my opinion G13 is talking about a content-edit. A tag is not a content-edit. The Banner talk 08:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 per SmokeyJoe. Humans should not be tagging pages for G13, it doesn't benefit them or the encyclopaedia in any way and can harm the latter. Thryduulf (talk) 10:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Although I don't believe the vast majority of tagging for G13 ought to be done by a human, a paradox is created if a tag is allowed to reset the clock. The spirit of G13 is to clean up stale drafts, i.e., with no changes to content (active improvement in any form) for over 6 months. Option 1 also more clearly preserves the possibility of last-minute rescues, e.g., by the reviewing admin. ^Complex/_Rational 14:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC) To clarify, my last comment on option 1 is with respect to option 2. ^Complex/_Rational 20:24, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  The spirit of G13 is to clean up stale drafts? Did you just make that up? No. Drafts do not need cleaning. The point of draftspace is a draftspace to keep draft stuff out of mainspace. If it is in draftspace, the purpose is met. The purpose of G13 is to prevent possible general violations (BLP and copyrights) from unwatched draft pages existing and accumulating forever. It most certainly was not created to feed desire for a spirit for draft cleaning. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:51, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

  The criterion itself is titled abandoned drafts and AfC submissions, with the key being that such pages haven't been edited in 6 months rather than a specific content issue. If this doesn't indicate routine cleanup, I don't know what does, and just because something can be tagged G13 and deleted, doesn't mean it must be. Conversely, BLP and copyright violations ought to be deleted ASAP, which is why we have G10, G12, and MfD, among other methods. Furthermore, WP:REFUND is explicitly permitted for G13, whereas I am extremely doubtful (i.e., it will essentially never happen) that BLP violations and copyvios would be restored upon request. ^Complex/_Rational 14:50, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. Option 3 isn't workable because there are pages which qualify for G13 that won't be automatically tagged by {{AFC submission}}, notably pages in draftspace that don't contain the template. I also completely fail to see how manual tagging (if done properly) "undermines the process" and I don't like having speedy deletion criteria having to rely entirely on bots (which can break, be abandoned, make mistakes, do not have common sense can miss edge cases). Option 2 significantly raises the standard that is required to keep pages from being deleted and as such I oppose it. If someone null edits a page or in some other way indicates that they do not want it to be deleted we should respect that and delay deletion, deleting it anyway then forcing them to go through WP:REFUND is just discouraging a waste of time for everyone involved. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 15:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Option 3 is perfectly workable. Some of your logic is wrong. G13 was made for bot-implemented objective decision making, and the bots have crafted messages, and review, which busyworkers don't. If ever a human finds a draft that can't be ignored for 6 or 12 or 18 months, they should MfD it.

  RE null edits to keep a page alive. If any editor things a page should not be G13-ed, ever, then they should strip the afc taggery and userfy it. See WP:DUD. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:56, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1.5 - removal of a G13 tag by a user who claims to intend to improve the draft does restart the clock, procedural removal doesn't. G13's official title is Abandoned Drafts and Articles for creation submissions; neither tagging, nor procedural removal of the tag, makes it any less abandoned. Animal lover |666| 22:27, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2, as I proposed, option 3 as a distant second choice. Human intervention into what essentially could be and is an automated task is an unnecessary waste of our efforts that could go towards something bots can't do as well (writing articles or enjoying teh dramah on talkpages/boards :)). Also, if someone only does drive-by tagging (whether CSD or otherwise) and doesn't care about the article in any other respect, it still remains abandoned and actually the outcome is sort of worse, because you have a stale draft with problem tags no one wants to address - for me, that's a perfectly valid reason to trash the draft. If someone does care, they could just as well make a content edit to the draft. Fixing spelling/commas/wording/whatever is good enough.

If my proposal does not pass, then at the very minimum make sure people leave the G13 tag alone. Also, no actions surrounding CSD tags should reset the clock. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:56, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• Option 3 or Option 1 - these are about equal in my mind, but I have a very slight preference for option 3. We should either clarify that G13 tags are not to be applied manually, or that manual tagging does not reset the clock. Either way, option 4 - the status quo - quite clearly causes confusion. I also think option 2 is too convoluted to be applied quickly and easily. I for one don't want to have to do that kind of mental calculation for drafts tagged G13 - this should be a quick, yes/no, black/white process. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 14:39, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 - we should not rely solely on automated processes for cleanup. ansh.666 07:39, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 this is already the de facto practice, and it works well enough. I've read the !votes for other options, but I am not convinced these are actually improvements. -FASTILY 01:34, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2. I think that the clock should reset only when the content of the draft is updated, but I am also in favor of option 1. This will probably make things hard for the developer(s) of the bot that automatically tags drafts with CSD. SWinxy (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 with Option 2 as a close second. even I've become a frequent REFUNDer, and anything that prevents resetting the six-month clock mean potentially more REFUNDS, I would prefer that to having extraneous unencyclopedic text hanging around. Both of these options would increase the chance that the six-month period is hit, while Option 3 would decrease the chance that the six-month period is hit. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:42, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

Two thirds of the incorrect G13s found by Pppery above seem to be symptomatic of not enough human intervention. Two had recent edits, appear to have been included in the bot report anyway (high replag?), and then were speedied anyway; two were robotically declined for being tagged two and a half hours early, and then were speedied a few weeks later by an admin who was willing to actually look at the history. —Cryptic 02:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Many here have said that human tagging of G13 harms the encyclopedia, but I haven't actually seen any evidence of that harm. It all appears theoretical to me... — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I admit I've made a mistake here and there, though I hope not recently. If I found out that G13 tagging was harming the encyclopedia I'd stop doing so immediately. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:39, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Closure Request

Heads up, since it has been 8 days since the last contribution to this discussion and this is a high-traffic page of relatively high importance to the project with a relatively clear consensus in my opinion, I have requested a closure at Wikipedia:Closure requests#WT:CSD#RFC on clarifying G13 and what constitutes "last human edit". — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:38, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Given that G13 is about our slowest CSD criteria out there, waiting another fortnight will not kill anyone. Primefac (talk) 13:46, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

That's fine with me, but thought I'd ask. I generally prefer quick resolutions to these things to not waste anyone's time. But you're right, the project will be fine if this is closed in 2 weeks. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 14:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification on U2 for IP subpages

Are IPs allowed to make subpages for their own IP user page? Let's say there is an IP user 123.123.123.123, are they allowed to create something like User:123.123.123.123/some page? RPI2026F1 (talk) 14:59, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

A more applicable example may be sandboxes. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:16, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Well let's say that the "some page" was a sandbox. Are IPs allowed to do that? RPI2026F1 (talk) 15:17, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

U2 explicitly allows user pages of IP users who have edited, and there is nothing in any policy prohibiting it that I can find. However, I navigated to user:<my ip>/Sandbox while logged out and was shown a message that I needed to log in or create an account before I could create the page. However there was no technical barrier to my creating a page in the user talk namespace. Thryduulf (talk) 17:09, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

So if they can somehow get a page created for them by another person, it's perfectly fine? RPI2026F1 (talk) 17:33, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing I can see in any policy that would prohibit it. Any editor would of course be free to nominate it at MfD, but if the content is all of

• Relevant to the encyclopaedia
• Not created by a blocked or banned user
• Not a copyvio, attack page, complete nonsense, etc
• Being actively used (whether by the ip in question or not)

then I don't see any benefit to doing so. By all means take something abandoned for 6 months or more to MfD if there is no benefit in keeping it (if there is benefit, move it somewhere) and pages that are irrelevant to the encyclopaedia should also be taken to MfD if U5 doesn't apply. Thryduulf (talk) 20:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Being actively used (whether by the ip in question or not) - probably a stupid question, but what if I found a sandbox that was created a year ago by a registered user, and never touched again? The actively being used part stuck out to me, so I just wanted to be sure. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:59, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:User pages#Old unfinished draft articles, such pages should not be deleted on the grounds of their age alone. Donald Albury 13:43, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm all but certain there was a fairly recent - within the past three or four years - consensus to specifically disallow this. I very clearly remember mentioning to someone (I think, but am uncertain, that it was Hobit?) that we couldn't userfy an article to an IP as he'd suggested because of that then-very-recent decision. I can't for the life of me find it, though, and I've spent the last four hours trying. The closest I've come is #6 at WP:Userfication#What can not be userfied, and that's been there since the page's very beginning in 2006. —Cryptic 02:13, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• Sorry, pretty sure it's not me. I don't recall being involved in anything involving subpages, let alone IP user-space subpages. I think I'd remember if I was. And if the discussion was about IPs getting things userfied to them, wow that sounds a bit more possible, but I don't think so. Hobit (talk) 05:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
• Still can't find this (and that really bothers me), but I generated this list of all IP subpage deletions and restorations in the process, which might be of some interest. 773 out of 3062 such deletions match /\bU2\b/. —Cryptic 02:06, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I support banning IPs from making any pages. They should WP:Register. Maybe, registering should be easier, eg the default process providing a username, and making it a one-button process.

IPs should be most welcome to edit, but once you’re making new pages, accountability outweighs the barrier of registration. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:18, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

You can't suggest either of those, both are matters for WP:VPR. IPs have always been able to create pages, but the namespaces in which they may do so have been restricted - for example, consider an article with no talk page but the IP wishes to suggest an improvement to the article without editing the article itself. Would you deny them the right to comment? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 06:07, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

If the article exists, the talk page must be auto-created to allow IPs to post. Similarly for userpages (users with a redlinked main talk page). IPs should be encouraged to comment in the talk and user_talk namespaces. But at the point that they have a reason to create a page like User:123.123.123.123/some page, they should WP:Register. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:55, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe they already cannot create pages "like user:123.123.123.123/some page". I also agree that your proposed changes are out of scope for this page. Thryduulf (talk) 10:50, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Deletion at scale

Following an arbitration case, the Arbitration Committee directed an RfC be held regarding mass deletion. Proposals for that RfC are currently being workshopped at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Requests for comment/AfD at scale and at least one (there likely will be more) draft proposal suggests adding new a speedy deletion criteria. Please leave your comments on that page. Thryduulf (talk) 13:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

G7

Regarding this revert: my understanding (per WP:DELTALK) is that user talk pages are generally not deleted. I added a note to that effect into WP:G7 (user talks are already excluded from WP:G8) but this was reverted. Is my understanding incorrect -- are users entitled to deletion of their user talk pages under G7? And if so, say someone else created your user talk page (for example, mine was created by someone else) so G7 won't apply: do we end up with a weird scenario where some editors can have their user talk page deleted under CSD and others cannot? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:22, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

No, your understanding is correct, but G7 doesn't apply anyway since the talk page usually has more than one author. If a user's talk page somehow has only one author, and that author requests that page be deleted, then I see no reason not to honor the request. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

To clarify my position, I see every comment on a talk page as adding substantial content, thus breaking the requirement the only substantial content of the page was added by its author. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:27, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Ah okay, that makes sense. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:28, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Question on A7 & A9's requirement for a claim of importance

Are A7 and A9 intended/used as merely a shortcut regarding implementing the wp:notability requirement for what looks like areas of common non-notable articles? Presumably "pre-screening" by a more lenient version of it? Or is it an additional criteria/requirement created by this policy for existence of an artice? It does have wording that expresses the intent to be a more lenient standard than wp:notability so the former seems more likely. If so, perhaps a clarification should be added that if an article is already determined to be wp:notable then A7 & A9 do not apply. A test example would be an article in one of those areas which meets wp:notability but does not contain any claim of importance. With a note that wp:notability, especially the GNG criteria is based on coverage and not necessarily importance. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

"Claim of importance" has a technical definition here, also linked from the CSD criteria itself. It's impossible for an article subject to be notable but not meet the "claim of importance" standard. ansh.666 22:22, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. So the gist of applying that essay is that if wp:notability is established, that counts having the claim of importance. North8000 (talk) 18:51, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

It's not so much the "gist of applying that essay" as the actual fundamentals of the policy - if notability is demonstrated then importance is also demonstrated. This because notability requires the subject to be mentioned in multiple independent reliable sources, but being mentioned in one independent source or one reliable source demonstrates importance. Thryduulf (talk) 21:27, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I like to think of importance as "If what the article claims about itself were provably true and demonstrated in multiple RS'es, might we have an article about it?" It's a quick way of assessing potential inclusion without getting stuck in the minutiae of notability. It's basically a "summary judgment" criteria, where, assuming everything goes in the article's favor... should we keep it? If not, no point in putting it through AfD, because statements like "Bob is a nice guy from my 2nd grade class" would never, even in the best possible light, be reasons to have an article on Bob. Jclemens (talk) 21:32, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that's right. Basically, we could define notability as the claim of significance being supported by reliable sources. ansh.666 01:31, 11 November 2022 (UTC)