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all 53 comments

[–]Pax_Empyrean 53 points54 points  (2 children)

As absurdly high as their salaries become, the cost of living drains it away, and many wind up being better off after moving away, because the steep salary cuts are outpaced by even steeper cost of living.

What I wish more people understood is that when supply is artificially limited (say, by NIMBY opposition to high density residential development) then increases in income can't do anything to change this. If there is housing for X people and there are X+10 people looking for housing, the price of housing will increase to whatever level is required to price 10 people out of the market. Everyone could be starting out at a million dollars an hour and ten people still wouldn't be able to afford to live there.

Same goes for healthcare. There are a ton of supply constraints on the provision of healthcare. Higher education is a similar case if you consider established prestigious universities to be a distinct good from recently established schools (which every student aiming for a "good school" does).

Increases in income across the board don't make these things more affordable because there isn't enough capacity for everyone and prices will rise to whatever level is necessary to price enough people out of the market. Thanks to health insurance and student loans, it can take some seriously ridiculous prices to achieve this.

[–]SkookumTree 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Sure, but even costs at Podunk State have skyrocketed. Mr. or Ms. Podunk isn’t exactly shooting for Harvard.

[–]Pax_Empyrean 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tuition at public universities is less than a third of what it costs to go to a private university.

Ultimately, student loans are still a function of income, because the willingness to lend is predicated on expected future income. You can't outgrow this.

[–]adiabaticaccidentally puts bleggs in the rube bin and rubes in the blegg 22 points23 points  (4 children)

Interesting; it seems that FANG has reinvented the company town by accident.

[–]gwern[S] 34 points35 points  (0 children)

If only. Company towns had a lot of merits, were often popular, and had clear ownership & hierarchy of blame if abused. The Bay Area has none of that, making it much worse.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (2 children)

10 years ago (or more), when Twitter was just starting people thought Jack was crazy to have is headquarters in SF, as opposed to the Peninsula. He persisted, and was the impetus, with others, for making SF a tech hub. The recent tax on gross income will lead to Square leaving, or at least most of its head count, and where Square goes, Twitter goes. It will be interesting to see which nearby city becomes Jack's new tech hub.

People fail to see how easily companies can move their employees. Google defragged recently, forcing huge numbers of people to centralize. After recent fallings out with Mountain View, expect Google to move to a new location, not Moffett Field. I would expect San Jose to be the beneficiary, which will change the calculus of rent yet again, as the North Bay will be a little to far to commute comfortably, while the South Bay will become more desired. The mid-Peninsula cities, like Mountain View, have essentially no natural assets. They are entirely a creation of the tech giants, and the tech giants can take what they give. The exceptions are Palo Alto, which was made by Stanford, and the hillside cities, which have attractive real estate.

[–]sonyaellenmann 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think you're underestimating the network effects of SF and Silicon Valley more broadly. I think startups on the margins are more likely to move than the established companies. (Granted, I may be wrong!)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that moving out of the Bay Area would be hard. Moving from one city to another is a lot easier.

[–]optimalerstuck in 7-layer metaphysical bean dip 12 points13 points  (1 child)

  1. collective employee savings will remain minimal, as whatever excess there is can be absorbed by the landlord oligopoly simply raising rent some more

This doesn't quite jive with my experience. Almost all of the people I know coming out of the Bay area to the Salt Lake City area have enough cash to make the move and be financially stable. Sampling bias: these people are uniformly in their 30s-40s, so it doesn't discount the possibility of golden handcuffs for 20 somethings.

The problem is that they come with skewed expectations of cost of living and property value and overpay relative to local salaries. I know at least three people personally who came from the bay area and immediately overpaid on rent or bought houses that most people in SLC can't afford, while easily spending 2x the CoL on everything else. In each case they lasted for 6-12 months and then started having serious financial problems, leaving them worse off than before they left the Bay area.

In this sense, the entrenched mentality of people coming out of the SF region is poorly adapted to non-SF economic thinking. So, I don't know if increasing landlord excesses are necessarily at a point to minimize savings such that it's impossible to leave the region. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

[–]sonyaellenmann 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Almost all of the people I know coming out of the Bay area to the Salt Lake City area have enough cash to make the move and be financially stable. Sampling bias: these people are uniformly in their 30s-40s, so it doesn't discount the possibility of golden handcuffs for 20 somethings.

The other sampling bias is "people who move out of SV to Salt Lake City" — no way that's random.

[–]greyenlightenment 14 points15 points  (7 children)

I think gwern is overstating the severity of the problem. That's not to say there aren't problems, but most people in SV with tech jobs seem to be doing fine despite the high rent.

These points mean that employees will have a hard time saving up large amounts of capital to serve as cushions, retirement savings, or seed investments for a startup of their own; they will be risk-averse to being fired or switching jobs, as those incur loss of working time/salary and risk extended periods of unemployment, and, perhaps most importantly, startups - which are cash-poor equity-rich - will struggle even more to be founded or then hire employees. After all, how can a startup compete with a FANG or AmaGooBookSoft or whatever big tech company offering salaries like \$200k+ & perks to the best software engineers? Sure, that startup might be able to offer them handsome stock options with an expected value (in the very distant future after the increasingly-hypothetical IPO) of say \$150k, but this equity is effectively worthless to an engineer who needs to make rent now. A FANG, on the other hand, can pay cash on the barrelhead and throw in some options as a bonus, for that old-time SV flavor.

There are ways for employees with options, especially for hot issues such as Uber where there is a lot of demand and a semi-liquid market, to borrow against the value of those options, wth the options being collateral. Such options can also be sold on secondary markets.

If you make $210k/year, after taxes you are still taking home $135k/year. In SV, the median rent for a one-bedroom apartment is $2,300 a month. So you are still left with $107k. not bad. Add $1500/month for other misc expenses such as food and health insurance and internet access and phone plan and car payment for a crappy car (no need to splurge). Still have $89k. This is not even counting stock compensation.

Aside from cash salaries needed for rent and other expenses, there is student debt, particularly for younger employees or employees with graduate degrees. Perhaps the only thing in the USA outpacing real estate costs is college tuition/student debt. Well, two things - student debt and health care. People are if anything even more terrified of losing a good health insurance plan than they are of being evicted/potentially homeless or their kids not going to college. Here too a FANG or other giant has the scale and brawn and cash and tax advantages to offer a gold-plated health insurance plan - of the sort which cannot be bought on the market and if it could one could not afford it - which cannot be matched by any startup.

The debt is not that big of a deal if the job pays even just mediocre. The wage premium from having a degree, especially if you major in STEM, makes it worthwhile in the long-run despite the student loan debt. Let’s say you get a $100k student loan to get a master’s degree in a STEM subject, and the interest on the loan is 6% fixed, and the duration is 15 years. The payments are only $850 a month, which relatively speaking is tiny if you’re earning post-tax $70+/year, which is not uncommon for STEM graduates.

[–]AngryParsley 21 points22 points  (0 children)

That's not to say there aren't problems, but most people in SV with tech jobs seem to be doing fine despite the high rent.

Well… we're doing better than others in the bay area, but I do think it's pretty silly that I've been a software engineer for a decade and I can barely afford to buy a house within 30 minutes of my office. Meanwhile, I have cousins back in Idaho who are buying houses, getting married, and having kids… all while having jobs in fields such as diesel engine repair or firefighting. And their wives don't have to work.

You are right that it's possible to save more money here than if you worked elsewhere, but you take a big hit to quality of life. You have to live in a cramped apartment or have housemates. You have to deal with crazy homeless people. Many public places smell like urine or feces. And unless you get lucky with an exit (or move out to Concord), you can forget about starting a family here.

When I moved to the bay area in 2007, I was amazed by all the talented people and interesting companies. Nobody spoke of leaving, and everyone was trying to convince their techy friends and acquaintances to come here. Now the attitude is different. A significant fraction of my peers have moved away. Except for those who've had exits, people have given up on buying a house and settling down. Now it's more like working on an oil rig: show up, grind away for a while, then go home with your pile of money. That is not an attitude that leads to healthy cities, and it certainly doesn't help future startups.

[–]gwern[S] 13 points14 points  (5 children)

That's not to say there aren't problems, but most people in SV with tech jobs seem to be doing fine despite the high rent.

You aren't thinking on the margin at all. Does the Bay Area have to turn into a flaming wasteland where you pledge fealty to roving biker gangs controlling gas depots before people don't 'seem to be doing fine'? If it was easy to be the Bay Area or the next Silicon Valley, plenty of other places have tried to do it - and failed.

If it's so great as all that and everything is just hunky-dory and it's easy to save up tons and buy a house and have kids, why do people keep leaving?

There are ways for employees with options

Ah yes, just what someone musing a twinkle in their eye will use, a back-alley abortionist^W^W^Wsecondary market. Which don't exist for the relevant stages in the first place. Yeah, no friction or transaction costs there, definitely.

Uber

Uber is the least important use case of all.

Still have $89k.

Which could have easily been twice as much were the cost of living sane. Let's see, how much bigger is twice as much bigger? Well, that's quite a lot bigger.

The wage premium from having a degree, especially if you major in STEM, makes it worthwhile in the long-run despite the student loan debt.

The payments are on top of everything else, of course, and incidentally aren't dischargeable in bankruptcy; enjoy the extra financial risk and need for cashflow. And where does this (short-term) wage premium come from? Note that 'barely positive expected-value' is not the question here.

[–]FirmWeird 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If it was easy to be the Bay Area or the next Silicon Valley, plenty of other places have tried to do it - and failed.

I don't think you're wrong here, but I believe the actors and factors you've identified in your post could have played a role here. If FANG have developed an excellent trap for their workers that maximises the value they can extract for a given level of remuneration, why wouldn't they work to actively shut down any attempts to bypass the inefficiency that they have purposefully created? I can see multiple plausible hypothetical mechanisms for them to do this, and an awful lot of motivation.

[–]greyenlightenment 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Rent for the $2.3k/month apartment example I gave is only about 13% of salary. the biggest expense by far is income tax , which has nothing to do with SV.

And where does this (short-term) wage premium come from?

STEM grads earn more. i don't think this is even a disputable statement

If it's so great as all that and everything is just hunky-dory and it's easy to save up tons and buy a house and have kids, why do people keep leaving?

hmm this shows otherwise:

https://waterdeeply-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/population-56fac8ca51949.png

[–]gwern[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

the biggest expense by far is income tax , which has nothing to do with SV.

Still not thinking on the margin, and of course it does have to do with the location. The federal government is only one part of income tax. And we're starting to see the recent Trump tax cut start to bite at high-tax states...

hmm this shows otherwise:

A graph from 3 years ago showing an asymptote and a flatline of what should be the hottest and fastest-growing labor market in the country, with considerable implied out-migration to counterbalance everyone moving there, yes, thanks for providing more support for my points.

STEM grads earn more. i don't think this is even a disputable statement

It certainly is, particularly in the context of the annual cries of a 'STEM shortage'. Here is just one example from a few days ago, "STEM Careers and Technological Change", Deming & Noray 2018:

Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (STEM) jobs are a key contributor to economic growth and national competitiveness. Yet STEM workers are perceived to be in short supply. This paper shows that the “STEM shortage” phenomenon is explained by technological change, which introduces new job tasks and makes old ones obsolete. We find that the initially high economic return to applied STEM degrees declines by more than 50 percent in the first decade of working life. This coincides with a rapid exit of college graduates from STEM occupations.

So, disputable.

Unless you are terrible with money, you can rent a one bedroom apartment in the bay area with a roommate and max out your 401k, your ira, and still put aside money into a taxable account.

So one merely has to live like a peasant and this is a totally reasonable thing to expect and will have zero effect on anything whatsoever like entrepreneuralism or risk-taking? Still not thinking on the margin...

[–]PlasmaSheeponce knew someone who lifted 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (STEM) jobs are a key contributor to economic growth and national competitiveness. Yet STEM workers are perceived to be in short supply. This paper shows that the “STEM shortage” phenomenon is explained by technological change, which introduces new job tasks and makes old ones obsolete. We find that the initially high economic return to applied STEM degrees declines by more than 50 percent in the first decade of working life. This coincides with a rapid exit of college graduates from STEM occupations.

So, disputable.

There's still high economic return even if the difference isn't as big early in the career. This is a real nothing burger of a point.

So one merely has to live like a peasant and this is a totally reasonable thing to expect and will have zero effect on anything whatsoever like entrepreneuralism or risk-taking? Still not thinking on the margin...

Where did I say anything about living like a peasant? Are you spending $5000 a month on candles or something that you can't save a bit of money?

And if you think that being able to save money into a brokerage account above and beyond retirement funding doesn't have any effect on entrepreneurialism then you're just not paying attention. Saved and invested money is literally the safety that lets people have the freedom to do what they like and take risks without worrying about anything.

[–]PlasmaSheeponce knew someone who lifted -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That things could be better does not mean that things are as bad as you claim.

Unless you are terrible with money, you can rent a one bedroom apartment in the bay area with a roommate and max out your 401k, your ira, and still put aside money into a taxable account.

[–]SchizoidSocialClubIQ, IQ never changes 17 points18 points  (3 children)

Despite the Golden Handcuffs the SV companies seem to suffer from serious employee retention problems. Maybe if Amazon would have chosen Nashville the smaller local tech scene would have made job hopping harder for employees. But they chose 2 expensive cities instead.

My answer on why rich tech companies stay in SV is: the Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

Maybe they could move to a cheaper place and make higher profits by reducing wages, but the corporate leadership doesn't want to move from coastal California's ski-and-surf lifestyle and Michelin starred restaurants to Podunk in Dixieland. And for really rich people the expense of living in the Bay Area is not a big deal. They buy even their second houses and vacation houses in expensive places because there is where they can easily get the goods and services they want.

[–]ArkyBeagle 0 points1 point  (2 children)

There was a rising tech scene in Dallas, but it was too tied to the internet bubble. There's still some stuff there but it's not like it was.

Dallas has pretty much world-class everything. Not in the same proportions as NYC or SiVa obviously, but it's a pretty fancy place.

[–]sonyaellenmann 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Honestly, "not in the same proportions" precludes Dallas from being world-class. Density is a key component and the bar is high.

(SF sucks for other reasons.)

[–]ArkyBeagle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess so. I'm not somebody that interested in that sort of thing. Sounds like if that's what you're interested in, you gotta pay the piper.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Data point: I like living in NYC and if my company moved, I would quit.

[–]jxubLife is about optimizing conveyor belts 5 points6 points  (15 children)

I don't think the impact of the typical American lifestyle has to be discounted as a large part of these golden handcuffs. In SF it's still practically necessary to have a car, and there is a bigger culture of stay-at-home SO than in other countries. Also, childcare and other children-related costs are a huge money hog, and SF as a city is more similar to European or Asian metropolis where a more modest lifestyle is the optimum and it's actually the most common one.

In other words, the rising costs of life in SF and other major cities in the US are highly influenced by the archetypal American myths and habits which are unachievable to the 99% of world's population. Therefore, the crux of the matter apart from the obvious governmental inefficiencies and market price fixing would be the unsustainable lifestyle standards.

This doesn't mean the FAANG's doesn't strangle the tech innovation to some degree, but I feel like the essay above does avoid raising some points, especially with regards to what lies ultimately beneath the facade of the economy that is the enthropy and finite resources, which end up sometimes leaking to our manufactured reality.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (12 children)

> In SF it's still practically necessary to have a car, and there is a bigger culture of stay-at-home SO than in other countries. Also, childcare and other children-related costs are a huge money hog, and SF as a city is more similar to European or Asian metropolis where a more modest lifestyle is the optimum and it's actually the most common one.

Because of the school system in SF, essentially no hi-tech workers remain in SF after they have children. In SF, you are assigned a school, thus most often requiring crossing the city, and schools are first and foremost a tool for promoting desegregation.

After eight years and thousands of complaints, the San Francisco Board of Education will consider overhauling a student assignment system that relies heavily on the luck of the draw for families forced to submit dozens of choices of schools for children entering kindergarten.

Board members Rachel Norton, Stevon Cook and Matt Haney will introduce a resolution Tuesday to require the district to start what would be at least a three-year process to revamp the lottery system. The three say the idea is to make student assignments more predictable and efficient while considering the need to desegregate campuses.

[–]AngryParsley 12 points13 points  (10 children)

I work in SF, and none of my coworkers with kids send them to public schools. In addition to the lottery problem, public schools in SF are terrible:

Part of an ambitious project to end the relentless assignment of underserved students into lower-level math, the city now requires all students to take math courses of equal rigor through geometry, in classrooms that are no longer segregated by ability.

That means no "honors" classes. No gifted track. No weighted GPAs until later in high school. No 8th grade Algebra 1.

This is obviously a non-starter for parents who themselves learned algebra in 6th or 7th grade.

Private schools rarely have busses, so the parents end up driving or using Lyft/Uber. (SF public transportation is not an option with a child.)

[–]-Metacelsus-Attempting human transmutation 2 points3 points  (4 children)

That means no "honors" classes. No gifted track. No weighted GPAs until later in high school. No 8th grade Algebra 1.

That's horrifying. I owe much of my current success to the accelerated math program where I grew up.

[–]TrainedHelplessness 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Assuming that intelligence is mostly hereditary, I think maybe you're giving accelerated education too much value. I was ahead in math, but i doubt it made a long term difference -- i suspect I'm good at math because of a high IQ, not because i learned the same stuff earlier and got some kind of compound growth advantage. Headstart doesn't do much, long term, for the same reason.

I suspect that advanced rate of education doesn't much matter until at least middle school, maybe not until high school or so.

SF parents spending 20k a year to send their kids to a private kindergarten aren't going to see much return on that investment (and that kind of gets back to the point that wealthy tech workers in the bay area are wasting all their money in a status contest).

[–]hold_my_fish 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Math talent does seem to be more heritable than not, but you still need to learn math to know math, and if you learn it earlier then you'll know it earlier. If you're developmentally ready to learn at a certain level, you might as well learn at that level--otherwise you're wasting time.

Personal anecdote: I had learned less math than I could have before attending university, and while I did well in my classes, it would have helped with career decisions to have had more mathematical experience earlier.

[–]TrainedHelplessness 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What level did you reach before getting to university?

For me, the high school to college transition was a bottleneck -- i got to calculus in 11th grade but couldn't progress because I wasn't near a university or willing to commute for one class, so then i repeated calculus in 12th.

I'm pretty sure i had zero long term advantage over any other kids that just did calculus once in 12th grade.

The San Francisco program that was discussed in this thread delays some kids in 8th grade math for a sense of equity but still lets them get to calculus by 12th, so I'm guessing there's relatively little harm.

[–]hold_my_fish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What level did you reach before getting to university?

I can't complain, since I knew basic calculus and trigonometry, so in that respect I was beyond requirements. With hindsight, the thing that would have been most enjoyable to do earlier would have been proof-based math. (I did see a little pre-university, but not in a very interesting way.)

[–]garrett_k 1 point2 points  (3 children)

How is it that the Bluest of the Blue cities with a *huge* tax-base can't manage primary and secondary education in a reasonable manner?

[–]AngryParsley 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The government of SF is utterly incompetent. They spend over $33,000 per homeless person per year1 but the homeless problem has only been getting worse. Every week I walk past people in Powell St. Station who are passed out with needles in their arms. SF can't solve their housing crisis. They can't fix their schools. The Central Subway has taken 10 years longer and cost 3x more than estimated when it was started. It will end up costing over a billion dollars, and MUNI projects that it will increase ridership by 1%. (Busses already serve the area.)

That's not the worst of it. The city is enjoying the greatest economic success in its history, but it has somewhere between $10 billion and $20 billion in unfunded pension and health care obligations. If there's an economic downturn or the tech companies leave, the city is screwed.

  1. The budget for homelessness last year was $250 million and there are around 7.500 homeless in SF.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One major problem is that Blue cities insist on desegregation now, desegregation tomorrow, and desegregation forever. At the first sign of busing, more privileged communities will leave, or join Catholic schools. This leaves behind minorities and the poor. Even high levels of funding, which in SF are about $1,000 per child, do not make up for the SES difference. New York pays about $25,000 per child, while suburban California pays about $11,000. Obviously, suburban California is far superior, as they get better teachers, as it is nicer to teach good students, and has less violence, as the students from middle class homes don't attack people (much).

[–]the_nybblerBad but not wrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably best to discuss that by posting that article in the culture war thread.

[–]TrainedHelplessness -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

This all sounds like hilarious proof that SF liberals don't believe any of the things they publicly say. Most people there claim they think human differences are socially constructed and say they want equal opportunity for everyone, but no one is willing to put their own kids in a desegregated school or give them the same average opportunities as other children.

[–]mupetblast 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Apparently there are 27 public high schools in San Francisco. Funny, I was under the impression there were like 5 or something.

[–]gwern[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

All of your points were just as true decades ago, so how can they explain the steep trends over the past decades?

[–]sonyaellenmann 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In SF it's still practically necessary to have a car

Maybe if you have kids, but a lot of tech workers don't. (Arguably a problem in-and-of-itself, at least from certain perspectives.) I wouldn't dispute your statement if you restricted it to families.

[–]rverghes 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I don't think the logic here is sound.

First, not all major tech companies are in San Francisco. Amazon is in Seattle, Microsoft is in Redmond, Apple is in Cupertino. As well, most of the SF companies do recruit and have offices in other cities like Vancouver.

Second, if the Golden Handcuffs are so bad, isn't the obvious answer to move away? If SF cost-of-living is $100k, and FANG salary is $150k, but you could work in a different city with cost-of-living of $30k, and salary of $100k, why wouldn't a bunch of fairly smart people move? It's not like their family or support network is there, most of them moved to SF from elsewhere.

My hypothesis would be that the top third of the tech company employees made a lot of money early, and purchased property in or close to the city. Same thing with many of the venture capitalists (Y Combinator, et al.). Thus they're not directly affected by the increasing price of real estate. (I believe California property taxes are on the price paid, not current assessed value.)

These people don't really want to move away from their chosen city and social network, and there is no pressure to keep costs down, so they justify the high salaries as simply the cost of doing business. Their incentive to make life better for their low level employees is not that high, especially as people keep coming to SF.

[–]the_nybblerBad but not wrong 2 points3 points  (2 children)

If SF cost-of-living is $100k, and FANG salary is $150k, but you could work in a different city with cost-of-living of $30k, and salary of $100k, why wouldn't a bunch of fairly smart people move?

Because it doesn't work that way. You can work in a different city, but your salary will be more like $80k-$90k max (it's hard to get six figures outside the major high-cost areas) with no bonus or equity. And you'll be doing business programming, most likely, which is dull as hell.

SF and the Bay Area are in a class by themselves, though. It's probably still true that you could get more space, have a shorter commute, and save money by moving from there to Manhattan. (granted, not "trendy Manhattan", we're talking Inwood or similar. But still Manhattan)

[–]rverghes 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Let's say NetSalary = Salary - CostOfLiving.

Is SF NetSalary is still higher than NetSalary in another city? If yes, then a job in SF is simply better than a job in other cities, and Gwern's "Golden Handcuffs" is wrong. If no, then why don't people move?

I think the idea that only SF companies are doing interesting technical work is wrong. There are lots of companies out there, including Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft, all of which are doing work which is just as interesting as the SF companies.

[–]the_nybblerBad but not wrong 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cost of living is variable. You can make a better net salary in SF living in a small shared apartment than you can in Peoria living in a house on 5 acres. But you can't get the house on 5 acres in SF, and the small house on 1/8 acre leaves you house-poor.

I think the idea that only SF companies are doing interesting technical work is wrong. There are lots of companies out there, including Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft, all of which are doing work which is just as interesting as the SF companies.

Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft all do their interesting technical work in very high COL areas.

[–]stillSUT 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Take a look at Alex St John's (Engineering Manager for MS at it zenith) frank* discussion of Recruiting [Software] Giants: his thesis is that engineering talent is an odd bird that can't be motivated with usual corporate extrinsic motivation, instead the 10x engineer will gladly push the company plow all day as long as he has buy in from "Her". The key is to aim your reward structure at motivating Her who in turn ensures the engineer comes to work everyday ready for battle. Consider SF and its culture in this context.

  1. Notice how much St. John hates employees with a Homo Economicus view of work as an Income - CostOfLiving or Work-Life-Balance optimization problem. What better filter for this attribute than all the "bugs" of SF living?
  2. In the 40's through the 60's, the center of tech innovation was Bell Labs in suburban NJ. I'd argue that at the time, that's optimized for what She wanted. Remember the engineer is ideally going to get lost in his work (ideally, from the company's perspective) and not be home much. But try this arrangement in suburban NJ today, and this would probably destroy marriages and relationships. But in a vibrant, progressive city, there are plenty of outlets to ease the pressure.
  3. Notice how St John likes drastic rewards over gradual income bumps: and look at how tech in SF organizes around these burst of funding rounds and orgiastic festivals. These are not town firemen negotiating a better pension, and if they are, St. John's view (and I suspect FANG's view is) then they can GTFO.

It boils down to the uncontroversial position that the best software gets shipped by the the most talented and most motivated team. What is controversial is what really motivates these individuals. Yes, people say they want good schools, low crime and affordability. And you can can poo-poo SF for failing to live up to this. But I'd say you're simply arguing against revealed preferences of the aspie tech caste.

*: the disucssion was so frank it was disappeared, as well the author apparently.

[–]SkookumTree 0 points1 point  (3 children)

What does the Aspie tech caste want?

[–]stillSUT 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Maybe a better question is what they don't want.

- an automobile and daily commute

- a community built around religion or sports

- a union, a cushy job, a good pension, a workplace with high job security for everyone

Yet, these are very desirable selling points to the majority of Americans. And these assumptions are built into many major cities structure.

Can anyone else think of other differentiating lifestyle features between aspies and normies?

[–]SkookumTree 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It seems like Aspies would want 3) as much as anyone. 1) and 2) are good points.

[–]stillSUT 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah #3's more about the tradeoffs: would you be willing to work with people sub-average in competence if collectively that meant everyone had a job for life. Compare peer attitudes for a dev who lacks craft vs. a cop who's out of shape.

[–]bearvert222 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the issue is that a lot of those startups are trying to shoot for the moon. What came to mind was film; the current situation is like trying to create the next Warner Bros. when a lot of them should be trying to be Roger Corman or even Troma. Not everyone can hire the top talent and be world changers, but its possible to still have a very good life otherwise. It's just everyone has bought into the myth if you aren't on broadway you aren't anything.

Maybe innovation will only happen when people accept lesser but sustainable positions and use the talent they have or can afford.I don't know. Good point though, it made me think a bit on things.

[–]BothAfternoonprideful inbred leprechaun 9 points10 points  (4 children)

See me crying down salt tears for the travails of the poor, very well paid techies who now find the shoe pinching.

Look, they went to the Bay Area for those jobs in big companies precisely because of the money. And I've seen more than one person defending the whole mess "Sure I have to live in a shoebox with six other people to pay the rent even though I make more money in one year than ordinary people make in ten, but I don't want to move somewhere less expensive! It's so cool living here! All the fun stuff and fun people are here!"

Well, you live in a high-density area where lots of people also want to live so demand is high, wages are high so landlords can charge the moon and you have to pay to play, you wanted the cool fun stuff in the big city? Big city living is expensive. Oh you have to do the responsible grown-up thing of grinding away at a job to pay your way and support your family, instead of being free to follow your dreams, live your passion and catch that vision? Have fun learning how the real world works!

Yes, I am gloating. Because the people complaining over how hard it is to make ends meet and they can't find decent places to live are the same ones with no sympathy for people in the boondocks saying how hard it was to make ends meet, they couldn't find decent places to live, and they had no good paying jobs. "Pack up and move to the Big City where there is loads of work and be happy to live in a shoebox, and if you don't have marketable skills sucks to be you; wanting to stay in somewhere you have roots and want to live is sentiment you can't afford" was as much helpful advice as they passed on. Now the boot is on the other foot, let them take their own advice - they can't afford to live where they want to live? Pack up and move to where they can afford to live.

[–]gwern[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I don't care about the techies, except inasmuch as I know them personally and wish them well. I don't live in the Bay Area, I live in the boondocks.

I care that this appears to be contributing to scleroticism in one of the few bright spots of the economy & technology, which are the key drivers of global well-being, helping monopolistic giants squat on chunks of the economy and doing so in a way which has massive collateral casualties and incidentally also screws over all those people in the boondocks who maybe could 'pack up and move to the Big City' to seek opportunity (which is increasingly concentrated in cities due to the very real advantages of cities) except guess what everything there costs 3x as much and the housing supply is so restricted it'd be physically impossible for more than a fraction of them to move, thereby managing to screw over not just the whole world and the future but also the poorest people; and all the people responsible for this get to enjoy their windfall real estate gains and special property tax loopholes without a care in the world.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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    [–]the_nybblerBad but not wrong 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    San Francisco is certainly urban, with a population density over 18k/square mile. Mountain View is suburban, though fairly dense for a suburb at 6600/square mile.

    [–]PaleoLibtard 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Look, they went to the Bay Area for those jobs in big companies precisely because of the money.

    That’s a bit of an unfair characterization. Many people move to these places not simply for a job that pays the big bucks but to be part of an industry that does amazing things that they want to be a part of.

    If I could find the same job in rural Montana and find a similar number of people who also have the same interests and connections I would happily move there and escape the high cost of living where I am.