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[–]gwerngwern.net 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Potassium citrate caused sleep problems for me too: https://gwern.net/zeo/Potassium

[–]TheGermanGuy21[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Very interesting experiment! Was it 4 grams of elemental potassium or potassium citrate? And how much potassium did you take in the second run?

Edit: Your experience sounds pretty similar to mine. It gets worse when taken later in the day and it not only makes it harder to fall asleep, but the sleep is completely disrupted and restless.

[–]gwerngwern.net 1 point2 points  (2 children)

4g citrate; I didn't bother calculating the elemental. I'm not sure how much the second dose was (I don't think I weighed it before hand to see how much powder was left) but it was similar-sized.

[–]TheGermanGuy21[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

4g potassium citrate would be about 1,5g elemental potassium (36%), which isn't that much actually. Crazy that even this amount interfered with your sleep so strongly.

[–]gwerngwern.net 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I was extremely surprised. One of the more surprising results from my experiments (others being apparent harm from magnesium and extremely large harm from site banner ads). No one ever said anything about potassium having side-effects on sleep! But the blind randomized self-experiment was pretty conclusive, whatever the exact dose was.

[–]2tep 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I have had chronic, severe insomnia for more than 15 years and I've had the same results with K2, both MK-4 and MK-7 and I haven't been able to figure out why --- there are some studies theorizing its effect on glucose metabolism is through modulating pro-inflammatory pathways...

I am due to test MK-7 again here soon as it's been a few years since I last tried it and I sleep a bit better nowadays because of alpha lipoic acid and phos-serine.

​

I've used potassium citrate too and never noticed any negative side effects, and maybe a slight positive correlation to sleeping a little better.

[–]Rogermcfarley 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I use Mirtazapine 7.5mg for sleep and L-Taurine. If I want some sedation effect as well I'll add in some Gotu Kola. I want to be free of Mirtazapine as I can't control my weight effectively whilst taking it. However I fear the consequences of tapering off it. I was about 30 lbs over weight, I'm now about 15lbs. My weight set point is definitely increased and my body always wants to get that 15lbs extra put on and more I suspect. I'm 13st 6lbs currently, extremely hard to drop it below that even at 1500 calories a day, so Mirtazapine is completely altering my physiology so I gain weight.

[–]TheGermanGuy21[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing! It seems rare that people don't go well with both forms of K2. Or at least I couldn't find much information on that.

The phosphatidyl serine is for cortisol reduction I guess? How does alpha lipoic acid help with insomnia?

And how much potassium did you take?

[–]2tep 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, for the cortisol. I'm guessing the ALA reduces Il-6, which is upregulated in chronic insomnia or it could be another inflammatory pathway. I have metabolic and nerve issues and ALA seems to help with these areas.

Treatment with irbesartan and/or lipoic acid was associated with statistically significant reductions in plasma levels of interleukin-6 and plasminogen activator-1

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15655130

[–]stackz07 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Careful supplementing potassium, it can cause Hyperkalemia.

[–]TheGermanGuy21[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That's why I dilute it in a bottle of water and sip on it over the course of the day. I also only start drinking from it after a heavy breakfast.

[–]tastyratz 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'd be more concerned around measuring accuracy and being very well aware how much you put into your body.

[–]TheGermanGuy21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just use a milligram scale for that.

[–]Disturbed83 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Ive higlighted this before but I will say it once more that MK-4 and MK-7 can be extremely dangerous and have the potential to cause lethal interactions with herbals and other pro and anti-blood clotting agents. It does this through both taking the breaks off and putting the breaks on certain clotting factors (its very complex I wont go into detail).

​

On top of that natto is just pure evil, it can affect TPA, TPA what? yes tissue plasminogen activator. This powerfully controls glutamate release and can thus even takes the breaks off glutamate inhibition. Add to that the fact that K2 can re-route calcium signalling and potentiate it and you got a recipy for disaster.

​

Effect of a Novel Substance from natto on Tissue-type Plasminogen Activator (t-PA) Release in Perfused Rat Hindlegs

Abstract:

Natto is a traditional Japanese food made from soybeans fermented by Bacillus subtilis natto. Natto and natto fungi contain many physiologically active substances, including dipicolinic acid, nattokinase, and vitamin K2. We used a rat hindleg perfusion model to show that the novel substances present in natto improve thrombolytic activity in the blood. The perfusion sample was extracted by mixing natto with twice the amount of water and heating at 121°C for 30 min. The effect of the extract on fibrin dissolution was measured using the rat hindleg perfusion test and the fibrin plate method. In blood vessels perfused with the natto extract made using the Miyagino strain, tissue-type plasminogen activator(t-PA) ac-tivity increased by 4.8 ± 2.1 times (n = 8). Five varieties of commercially available natto were examined. The average in-crease in fibrinolytic activity was 5.8 ± 3.0 times (n = 20).

​

Stick to vitamin k from goat cheese and other foods and let your body do the conversions.

[–]TheGermanGuy21[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Regarding rerouting of calcium, isn't that what vitamin K2 is always touted for? As soon as I stop taking K2 I get tartar on my teeth. And I don't even ingest much calcium because I rarely consume dairy.

[–]emergentketo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

This is great to read - have just ordered some Vit K (contains K1 and both variants of K2) - in the hopes of curing my tartar. I build tartar at a phenomenal rate, and this concerns me given the correlation with heart disease.

Could I ask how much are you taking?

[–]TheGermanGuy21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I take 100mcg of MK-4 every other day. If you don't get insomnia from K2, which seems to be rare anyway, you can take more though. Taking a higher dose definitely helped cleaning up tartar faster and better. When it's gone a lower dose might also work just to sustain it.

I was quite surprised how well it works. I suggest taking it after breakfast together with vitamin D (in general, not related to the tartar).

[–]Disturbed83 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Keep in mind we are all different, Im merely pointing out that in some individuals K2 supplementation can be dangerous, while getting vitamin k from food sources is far less likely to lead to complications.

All the more reason to do genetic testing.