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all 22 comments

[–]bob-T 7 points8 points  (2 children)

The fact that your two subsequent emails were completely ignored makes it shady. Any future publication bias should come as no surprise so long as the l-threonate form is more expensive than glycinate and citrate. I'd still like to see a study done, but preferably by a group who doesn't have such a conflict of interests.

Thanks for the good read, though. Very informative.

[–]gwerngwern.net[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I think it would be shady even if Lund had replied. You could imagine that perhaps Lund no longer works there and so never got my last two emails, or my emails got spam-filtered or something like that which is an entirely innocent explanation for the non-responses; but if Lund had replied that 'trials are starting and results are expected in early 2016', would it make a difference? I wouldn't believe them at this point - between Lund and the web page, promises of results Real Soon Now have been made and broken something like 3 or 4 times now depending on how you count. And that would still leave unanswered questions like why did USC's researcher apparently back out?

[–]bob-T 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It just shouldn't take 3-4 years to conduct a study and determine whether or not the results are conclusive. If the lead researcher backed out then I could understand a delay - but the cynic in me is lead to believe that the preliminary results simply don't support the hype/marketing behind it. I also did not realize there was a patent on the l-threonate formulation. I think it's important for the community to be aware of patents like such, and to remain skeptical when the research isn't there to support it (or when the research is being funded by the patent-holders, hence the "overestimated results" you suggested).

[–]bart4 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just wanted to note that I observed a very similar pattern watching the website of Cortex Pharmaceuticals, one of the first companies to manufacture and sell Ampakines.

I don't have a good memory of the timestamps involved here, but the general progression of the marketing on their website was (over the last 4 years or so):

  • Primarily focused on Ampakines' possible efficacy in treating psychiatric illnesses, especially ADHD, including a whole lot of theory, how they interact in the brain, possibly improve its functioning, etc. A page indicating the progress of trials for various ampakines. News updates about the various drugs making it out of pretrial phases.
  • Nothing makes it past Phase 1, updates become less frequent, Phase 1 trial results are never reported.
  • Company gets a new CEO, one who had no involvement in the original Ampakine-related research.
  • All references to psychiatric illnesses are removed from the site, the new use case is treating respiratory depression, either drug-induced or sleep-apnea-related.

The straightforward interpretation is that the drugs weren't effective in the trials, and the results weren't published.

No common sources of supplement/nootropic info reflect this lack of results (or implied negative results). I know from a contact in bio research that Ampakines are still being investigated for cognitive effects (in mice), probably pointlessly.

Racetams are still associated with Ampakines on message boards, as a possible reason for their (pretty dubious) effectiveness. Ignorance just keeps spreading itself around.

[–]thebungeejumper 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh man, I 'm really surprised it's not their top priority to update a potential consumer email stalking them about their new research about to be released.

There is a decent amount of research showing MgT may be absorbed better into the brain than other forms (from other researchers, in animal models) . As with most OTC supplements, funding for extensive research is lacking because most cannot be patented (don't blame the researcher, blame the system). As such, all research on these OTCs is small scale, incomplete and not as rigorous as you see with FDA approved drugs.

This is the trade-off we have that allows these substances to be available at all. There isn't enough money to be made to be worth millions to get them approved through the FDA drug process, so there are small time researchers and "nutraceutical" firms running smaller studies trying to show these substances may do something.

When you're buying an OTC supplement, esp a newer one, you're taking a risk, and making a bet that you will potentially get a benefit that may exist. you are also taking the risk that it won't work for your condition/use and that you are wasting 20-30 bucks. Worst case you could run into health problems, although with MgT (Low dose magnesium + L-Threonate), which have been in use for a long time, the chances are low. More problematic, there is no purity control of OTCs in the US, so there is no guarantee what the bottle says is what you're getting (which is why I get some of my supplements from Canada, where OTC purity is assured).

Its not a good system, but it's what we currently have.

[–]Debonaire_Death 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well it works great for me and I don't have a bias except that I want to sleep.

Still, good on you for doing the work of investigating research integrity. We don't need to be bamboozled or anyone thinking that they can easily bamboozle us.

[–]KyleStannings 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Gwern, what dosage of magnesium are you taking now after your writeup about how even ~136mg of daily magnesium eventually affected your productivity negatively?

[–]gwerngwern.net[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm taking roughly half that in the current experiment.

[–]MisterYouAreSoDumbNatrium Health & Nootropics Depot 1 point2 points  (5 children)

I've written multiple emails to them about this same issue. I got ignored too. I think it is safe to say that Magtein has no scientific evidence for their assertions at this point.

Anecdotally, I do find L-threonate works. I also find that magensium glycinate works too, and is cheaper. I use glycinate sometimes, and L-Threonate others. If I did not have easy access to cheap L-Threonate, I would just use glycinate all the time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Do you guys sell L-Threonate?

[–]MisterYouAreSoDumbNatrium Health & Nootropics Depot 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Not at the moment. The normal suppliers of it are out till next year. We are trying to find more. I just have a shitload of it at our office.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Would you be willing to sell some of the l-theronate you have now, if I contacted you via email about it?

[–]MisterYouAreSoDumbNatrium Health & Nootropics Depot 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Sure, I could sell you some. It's all Nootropics Depot branded, but I have a bunch of it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok, I will email you shortly

[–]taktikz7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sucks that the creators of this form of Magnesium are from MIT and aren't willing to be transparent about it. I'm sure they received private investment and are too afraid to throw in the towel.

[–]lightwithglow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your diligence and all your efforts. I purchased this a few months ago for my parents - in particular Jarrow Formulas Magmind Nutritional Supplement. It's a rather pricey magnesium that I was hoping would make a noticeable impact.

[–]arrialexa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Completely anecdotally, MgT makes me sleepy while equivalent doses of other forms of Mg don't.

[–]Synzael 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is my personal policy. Bulk normal shitty magnesium glycinate for normal daily use or whatever to keep levels good. Use 2g MagT powder every 2.5 hours if you so desire additional extreme magnesium protectivity.

[–]inmy325xi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've taken Magnesium Threonate and it gives me terrible brain fog the next morning. I just stick to ZMA if I want to supplement with magnesium from now on.

I dosed for about a week and noticed that I was not as sharp in the mornings going all the way into lunch and I removed the Threonate..and just like that, back to my normal self.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im not expecting much from MT. Tried it for the hell of it. Still not sure if Ill reorder after the Magtein is gone.