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[–]CPlusPlusDeveloper 12 points13 points  (3 children)

We have a massive segment of the population that is forced en masse to wake up and do intellectual work at a much earlier time than their natural chronobiology. They're called high school students.

Study after study consistently show that high schoolers do far worse on nearly ever academic and performance metric the earlier their schools start. That makes me extremely doubtful that there are any intellectual gains to be had from waking up early, for anything more than a tiny minority of the population.

[–]lunaranusmade a meme pyramid and climbed to the top 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Perhaps the circumstances most conducive to high school learning are not those most conducive to writing fiction.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

interesting counterpoint. though also need to consider that we are comparing developing brains locked into a relatively monotonous and rote process and something a bit different.

anecdote: used to hate getting up for school (and didn't like school), now when I get up early I feel like a superhero.

[–]Inpromtu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Anecdotal, but I remember that pupils that actually liked going to school also were the ones that had no trouble with the early hours and their grades showed as much. They were not that many, though. Comparing an activity that carries a negative connotation (school) with one that is enjoyable (writing) will lead to different results.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 8 points9 points  (8 children)

/u/gwern, more anecdata for you: My experience is similar to yours. When I do manage to get up and work early — ideally before the sun comes up — it's great. I seem to be more creative, more productive, and less easily distracted.

However, managing to rise early on a regular basis feels impossible. My natural rhythm (at least under the modern circumstances of my life) seems to be sleeping until 10am – 12pm and going to bed between 1am and 3am. Whenever I try to deviate from that, I can sustain a few days of self-discipline, but then I backslide.

[–]CPlusPlusDeveloper 5 points6 points  (1 child)

We know that acute sleep deprivation seems to have a manic and euphoric effect on at least some percent of the population some percent of the time. For example staying up all night is one of the most effective ways to temporarily aleve depression. Of course the problem is that chronic sleep deprivation has the opposite effect, and the temporary mania and euphoria is not sustainable.

My speculative take is that whatever this mechanism, it was the main reason you experienced a productivity boost. By waking up early you intentionally were fighting against your chronobiology, hence adding an element of acute sleep deprivation regardless of how many hours you got the night before. That mania fuels an amphetamine like focus.

The upshot, if my hypothesis is true, is that waking up early would not produce similar gains if you did it everyday. Like the depressive who stays up all night, it may feels like you've discovered an intervention that will pay lasting gains. But if you were to actually make it part of your recurring lifestyle, the benefits would stop, and eventually the impact would work in reverse.

Along those lines that's probably why you naturally tend to stop conforming to that pattern after a few days. As acute sleep deprivation becomes chronic, you're most likely intuitively recognizing that the pattern has crossed over to the point of being counter-productive.

[–]gwern 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ooh, that's a particularly... depressing... take. Can't believe it didn't occur to me, since I'm familiar with the sleep-deprivation anti-depressant effect from the Boland meta-analysis. I'll have to add that one.

[–]optimalerstuck in 7-layer metaphysical bean dip 3 points4 points  (4 children)

I suffer the same problem with backsliding; I make good decent efforts to get to bed by 10:00 pm for a period, but end up sliding towards midnight consistently. Much of my good thinking work happens in the 9:00 PM-11:00 PM period.

On the other hand, I occasionally have days where I wake up extremely alert as early as 4:00 am, and then produce what I consider to be my very best work. It's like a switch flips in my brain and I achieve maximum clarity in my thinking. Unfortunately the effect appears to be tied to my shifting sleep schedule, and in general I have difficulty reproducing it.

[–]Terakq 2 points3 points  (2 children)

On the other hand, I occasionally have days where I wake up extremely alert as early as 4:00 am, and then produce what I consider to be my very best work. It's like a switch flips in my brain and I achieve maximum clarity in my thinking.

Is this after a good night's sleep or did you wake up earlier than expected? If the former, could the effects be partly due to sleep deprivation?

[–]optimalerstuck in 7-layer metaphysical bean dip 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I probably haven't tracked it as well as I could have, but my perception is usually that I haven't slept enough and that I want to sleep more, but the alertness prevents me from doing so. If I try to sleep I end up just laying there stuck in my thoughts.

The effect is similar to how I feel mid-morning to noon after I take modafinil, but the waking effect happens when I'm not using modafinil and existed before I started using it.

[–]Terakq 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sleep deprivation and modafinil can both lead to a temporary dopamine concentration increase, which can increase verbal fluency and creativity. I have had similar experiences as you in both cases (increased ability to do brain-taxing work like writing or programming after waking up earlier than normal or taking modafinil during the day).

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My best writing originated in dashed-off notes on my phone at odd times. The creative urge is definitely erratic in my experience. I also incubate ideas for a long time, usually more than a month.

[–]penpractice 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can sustain a few days of self-discipline, but then I backslide

If you ever try again, some wisdom from a guy who has managed to easily change his sleep schedule around --

  • Eat earlier in the evening the day before you wake up early (say, 5pm). Then eat a large meal within the hour of waking up. This helps reset the circadian rhythm.

  • Go on a nice walk early in the day, but I suppose any exercise would be sufficient

  • Dim lights earlier, so if you want to sleep at 10 you'd dim them starting even at 8pm

  • Use all your willpower to go 5 days waking up early, and you will never have to use willpower to wake up early again. You can only "sustain" a few days because you didn't make it a habit!

[–]saysumthing12 4 points5 points  (10 children)

Seem to remember Houellebecq saying the same - best time to write is when half awake, very early in the morning. Weird.

[–]gwern 7 points8 points  (9 children)

One idea I've been musing: it seems like there's a possible moderator here for fiction vs nonfiction authors. Ericcsson mentions Darwin and other scientists, but most of the other anecdotes recounted tend to be about fiction writers. Perhaps fiction benefits from a half-awake dissociated state which is caused by sleep lag. Sort of a natural version of being buzzed on alcohol, which is also associated with fiction writing. You don't seem to hear about nonfiction authors being especially alcoholic or writing their best stuff on the influence of alcohol (as opposed to, say, amphetamines or nicotine - which is the stereotype for scientists & philosophers & journalists, while the stereotype for novelists & poets is being boozehounds).

[–]gardenofjew 2 points3 points  (7 children)

Amphetamines were big in the 1950's and 1960's for fiction writers-- think William Burroughs and Jack Kerouac. I think I recall Leonard Cohen using amphetamines quite a bit from his biography.

Coffee usage seems ubiquitous in fiction writing too, but the base rate of caffeine use in general population is so high that I'm not sure the use of it among writers is all that extraordinary.

[–]gwern 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Amphetamines were big among everyone then, but it seems to've just been a passing fad due to their novelty and ease of access from asthma inhalers, while the link between alcohol and fiction writers is eternal; and since you mention Burroughs and Kerouac, remember that the famous On The Road is a fictionalized memoir, while Burrough's work was also semi-autobiographical, and hew much closer to the nonfiction side of things than is usual.

Coffee usage seems ubiquitous in fiction writing too, but the base rate of caffeine use in general population is so high that I'm not sure the use of it among writers is all that extraordinary.

Yeah, Balzac notwithstanding, I don't see anything special there. Everyone drinks coffee/tea.

[–]gardenofjew 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Good points. The amphetamine usage described in a lot of those writings also involved a lot of sleep deprivation-- many days, sometimes a week or more, of sleep deprivation and the mild/moderate psychosis that can come with that. So that's kinda pointing at your theory-- fiction writers using a mixed sleep/awake state to boost creativity.

Haven't read about writers using Modafinil for fiction writing either, but have heard of lots taking it for nonfiction writing. And seen it at university.

[–]gwern 1 point2 points  (1 child)

And the amphetamine psychosis itself too, of course: seeing shadow men, that sort of thing. Not a good thing on its own, presumably, but suggests perhaps a similar state of suggestibility and slightly-haywire divergent thinking. So the Beats were already close to nonfiction to begin with, and abused amphetamine in a way to make it more alcohol-like... Agreed about modafinil, I have yet to hear about any fiction writers using it, and I bet if I did, they would tend to use it for either research or editing, not idea-generation or the initial writing.

(What about LSD microdosing? I got terrible results from it, but maybe that's because I hardly ever write fiction. Maybe people who do get good results from it are writing fiction, one way or another?)

[–]gardenofjew 1 point2 points  (0 children)

(What about LSD microdosing? I got terrible results from it, but maybe that's because I hardly ever write fiction. Maybe people who do get good results from it are writing fiction, one way or another?)

Ha! Still amazes me that no one else in the wide world of r/nootropics, r/microdosing, etc. has tried your self-blinded microdosing protocol.

If I had a reliable source I would try it. Back when I did have access, I didn't have any daily performance metrics to use, but I'm a pretty regular user of Anki + other self-tracking stuff now, so it'd be easy to integrate this into my routine. Well, another time...

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Has amphetamine usage among elite authors curved down in a manner correlated with non-illicit amphetamine availability? Could increased diagnoses of ADHD and prescriptions of Adderall be a confounder? Is there even reliable data for what I'm asking?

[–]gwern 1 point2 points  (1 child)

My impression is that elite authors don't seem to use any kind of amphetamines too much. Relaxants/depressants/anxiolytics seem more common. I have no idea where you would get reliable data.

[–]sonyaellenmann[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My impression is that elite authors don't seem to use any kind of amphetamines too much.

I'm curious about why this is your guess, if you care to elaborate. Based on your research / readings for the post?

[–]Bearjew94Wrong Species 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personally, I do fairly well with when writing papers when I’m extremely tired, which is similar to being drunk. I stop distracting myself by overthinking everything and just sit down and write things down.

[–]want_to_want 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I thought this would be about a different effect that has plagued me since forever: the stuff I write in the morning is usually more on point and well-adjusted. When I write something late at night, it often feels overwrought and "purple" when I reread it in the morning. No idea why.