×
all 14 comments

[–]gwern[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

And after a long tense game, Team Pain beats OA5!

One thing from the after-game discussion: the much-maligned '5 invincible couriers' has been reduced to 1 (vincible?) courier, as of Saturday 18 August. One HN comment says more heroes were available? I haven't seen anything on that yet.

More commentary from Cook: https://twitter.com/mtrc/status/1032413638311780352

  • courier reduction appears to have reduced aggression and OA5 went for Roshan (twice) this time, even sacrificing part of their base. That's a big change.
  • as I pointed out before, humans should be able to adapt in-game in away OA5 can't, giving it an advantage, with the historical example of the OA 1x1 agent getting crushed after practice; Brockman's Twitter implied today as much about previous matchups, and Cook says

    A crucial thread throughout all of this is adaptation. Dendi seemed to have not seen the bot before, and was blown away by it. But what we heard last year, and this year too, is that teams and players who get many runs at this find ways to crack the AI open. #OAI

    Apparently the way these matchups work is that OA5 plays the losers of each TI day? So presumably each match will get harder; losing the first one bodes very poorly for the upcoming ones tomorrow & Friday, since not only do the opponents get learn within-game and to watch the previous games to do some (ahem) off-policy learning, they also are better than the team before.

  • On the frequent accusation of cheating via not really having 200ms reactions:

    The system has a 200ms reaction time cap, but it's important to realise that in that 200ms it reads the entire game state - things offscreen, things a human has to click to read. So human-comparable reaction time, but superhuman information processing #OAI

  • neither team drafted? huh? Isn't that much of the point? Sure, it ensures OA5 doesn't get a huge lead in the draft like it did in the Benchmark, but surely that's part of the game...

    See also https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/94vdpm/openai_hex_was_within_the_200ms_response_time/

  • more odd, erratic, clearly mistaken behavior by OA5 when it gets behind:

    OpenAI beginning to do a few strange things as they come under pressure. Gyrocopter uses a disabling spell on a single tiny monster, Death Prophet (tall ghost lady) casts her most important spell without any enemies nearby. #OAI

    43 minutes in. The humans have taken more objectives, and are ahead on gold. More importantly, the bots are doing a few weird things - using important spells for odd reasons. But honestly it's a nailbiter still. The bots are bad at the big decisions, but the small ones? Surgical.

    We're also seeing a few things used incorrectly, including an item called a "Refresher Shard" which refreshes the cooldown on spells and items. This is an item rarely seen - it appears on the third death of Rosh. It's likely the bots don't have as much experience using it. #OAI

  • :)

    Holy shit, a team of bots played a 45 minute game against a pro-level team on stage at The International.

Dota2 subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/99idug/the_international_8_openai/ (they're very upset about scheduling) HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17823286 Currently brief comments at https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/99ix2d/d_openai_five_loses_against_first_professional/

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One thing from the after-game discussion: the much-maligned '5 invincible couriers' has been reduced to 1 (vincible?) courier, as of Saturday 18 August. One HN comment says more heroes were available? I haven't seen anything on that yet.

Yes, that changes the game completely. The fact that there's only one courier and that it's vincible, which is regular Dota, is game changing. Pain killed it a few times, and OpenAI steered it at multiple moments. The courier is like a flying hero which everyone has access to, flying means it simply passes through terrain. One of the spells is temporary invulnerability under a long cooldown after usage, which OpenAI did use multiple times in the appropriate situations. The other spells is simply go to secret shop, deliver items, return items to stash, and one or two more.

courier reduction appears to have reduced aggression and OA5 went for Roshan (twice) this time, even sacrificing part of their base. That's a big change.

Yes, but it also gave the Aegis, which grants a hero which carries it a one time Resurrection, to the more trivial heroes, i.e not the damage dealers and more to the supports that contribute way less. Depends on the strategy of course. Damage dealers tend to be more squishy, like a glass cannon.

An easy way to solve it might be to in the Team Spirit algorithm simply check which teammate increases win probability when it picks up the aegis.

neither team drafted? huh? Isn't that much of the point? Sure, it ensures OA5 doesn't get a huge lead in the draft like it did in the Benchmark, but surely that's part of the game...

Blitz, the Asian commentator during the match, selected the heroes for Team Human. Obviously drafting is important as otherwise the bot wouldn't predict the game before this one at 8% win and lose, when the chat chose a terrible line-up for OpenAI. I still think OpenAI drafted for itself and Blitz did for the human team in real time (i.e choosing heroes after seeing what the other team chose, banning heroes, etc) but the OpenAI team couldn't do it live on stage with Pain live-drafting. Such an annoyance, I bet they will solve it for tomorrow, otherwise that's ridiculous. We were also missing the win probability. I don't mind that OpenAI doesn't announce what they expect the win probability is at to the human opponents, since it alters how the human team plays, but for the casters and viewers I think it's important. I expect the reason why we lacked win probability was the same why there wasn't an on-stage draft.

more odd, erratic, clearly mistaken behavior by OA5 when it gets behind:

It seemed to lack short-term decision making. For instance the Death Prophet ultimate spell, which goes on a long cool-down, summoning those ghosts, is absolutely vital for them in team-fights. It does a lot of damage and after the spell is over heals the Death Prophet with the damage it dealt. It makes no sense to use it to kill jungle creeps, as you're far into the game and are expecting team pain to be on your doorstep the moment you make a mistake like reducing your damage output for a team-fight. Damage is one part why team-fights are won. If you just drag up your damage artificially you'll just win fights (for instance give 50000 damage and you will kill everyone in one hit). It's fine to do a mistake like that early on in the game, as that doesn't mean you instantly lose when they push and kill your melee and range barracks.

they're very upset about scheduling)

Most people want to see the upper-bracket games, so OpenAI delays it with like an hour, putting the largest audience Russia/Europe super late into the night if they want to watch it live. Think 4-5AM in Russia. Upper bracket games first and then OpenAI would solve this..

[–]mnbvcxzlkjhgfdssa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where is this?

[–]FatChocobo 0 points1 point  (10 children)

I'd still like to know what the OpenAI Five team meant when they said the agent has a 200ms reaction time, since it was blaringly obvious that's not actually the case from that game.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

That is 200 ms.

[–]FatChocobo 1 point2 points  (5 children)

I wish we could get access to the replays so we could check the combat log. :<

[–]Cryusaki 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The reason why they appear to react faster than 200ms is because when something unexpected happens us humans have a delayed reaction time as we try to understand the radically new environment whereas the AI reaction time is still 200ms

Which is in part why the AI does better in choatic team fights than predictable laning

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

You can always count the frames, like someone on the Dota reddit did before. OpenAi also runs on an older Dota 2 version, so that increases the barrier to get replays to the current one.

[–]FatChocobo 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I think it's more likely that it's running on a custom game, since certain things like illusion runes are disabled.

I'm not sure about how custom game replays work.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It's an older Dota 2 patch, so it's definitely not the same Dota version.

[–]FatChocobo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I understand, and I know that it's an older version, but it's easily possible to watch replays from older versions (unless there were significant map changes). It's a custom game running on a previous patch, I'm just not sure about how custom game replays work.

[–]thebackpropaganda 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It probably was 200ms, but I think 200ms is way too much. The insta-disables on Axe was clearly superhuman and unfair.

[–]FatChocobo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I guess even with 200ms reaction time with the perfect attention the agent has (constant 200ms reaction time to anything that happens anywhere on the visible portion of the arena) it's still not comparable to humans who have non-constant and partial attention.