Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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HazaraHistorian

HazaraHistorian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I believe I've given this user more than enough WP:ROPE.

I suspect it's mainly thanks to their false belief (this is not even close to the mainstream consensus in scholarship, not sure where they're getting it from) that the Hazaras are basically "Turks" [1] which have led to much of this disruption.

• Yesterday they added that this Hazara tribe was descended from the Karluk Turks under the guise of a citation, except the citation mentioned no such thing. I.e. they inserted their own personal opinion/interpretation.[2]. They previously attempted to the same here without a source even [3]. Simultaneously, a random IP tried to do the same here [4]. That same IP tried more or less to add the same WP:OR POV edit of HazaraHistorian [5] here [6], trying to connect the Hazara to the Khazar Turks. Moreover, a mere day after I reverted HazaraHistorian for inserting a primary source [7], the IP conveniently knew of the rule, removing info about the Mongol connection of the Hazara [8]. In other words, that IP is probably theirs.
• [9] Once again their own words under the guise of a citation.
• [10] Removed info that was heavily sourced in the body of the article.

Based on this, I would wager there are probably more edits where they have mixed sources with their own words.

And here are some of their grim remarks (WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS):

• "Why is there an Iranian editing Turkic pages and calling them Persian? Wtf is this Wikipedia so biased"

• "So the HistoryOfIran guy removes cited sources but allows un cited sources that say Ghurids were Tajiks 💀💀💀" (spoiler, I have done no such thing, that mention of me was completely random as well, hadn't been in contact with them for some time or done anything controversial in that article, unless reverting random IPs altering/removing sourced info counts)

• "Literally no sources of it saying it’s a Tajik dynasty, please stop disturbing pages and abusing your admin privileges" (spoiler, everything was sourced in the body of the article, which they couldn't even bother to check, or maybe they did see it and WP:JDLI followed)

When I told them (again) to stop attacking me [11], they acted like any other mature and collaborative Wiki user and responded with a head exploding emoji [12] --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll wait for HazaraHistory to respond to this thread, but I'm not seeing much which inspires confidence. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

The book I cited literally mentions some Hazaras being Karluk, it don’t know if you can tell, but Qarluk is Karluk but with a q, without any sources you can see the connection. I also have DNA prove from Vaha duo distancing but idk if Wikipedia allows them to be uploaded. He adds that the Ghurid Dynasty is of Tajik origin, which is really disputed and there are many sources that say it is a Turkic Dynasty, I can provide them too. HazaraHistorian (talk) 03:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Another thing is I only have/use 1 IP address, I never used a different ip to make edits. I even didn’t use a different ip when I was banned earlier. HazaraHistorian (talk) 03:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

For the Ghaznavid edit I’m not sure if I did anything wrong about the Middle East part, but I’m sure I didn’t do anything wrong with the Karluk part since I cited 2 sources of Ghaznavids being Karluk, if he doesn’t know that it’s clear that Ghaznavids were of Kalruk slave origin. HazaraHistorian (talk) 03:54, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Can you also ask him why he put the deletion request template on the Karakhanid-Sassanid War page, other than the reason of it being against what he likes. HazaraHistorian (talk) 04:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Before Bloop was sock blocked, the interaction between them and Hazara was triggering my spidey sense. Dropping the analyzer if helpful to anyone assessing. Note, I'm not saying HIstorian is a sock, I just think there was shenanigans present before Bloop was IDed as a sock. Star Mississippi 20:38, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  IK bloop, he has a TikTok account that makes racist vidoes against Hazaras, (Redacted). HazaraHistorian (talk) 22:36, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Today was yet another WP:OR POV addition made by HazaraHistorian, continuing their attempt to connect the Hazaras to certain Turkic groups and vice-versa [13] --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:01, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Did you even see the picture? You keep saying tried to connect which is funny. You clearly have no understanding of Hazara tribes and their origin. HazaraHistorian (talk) 23:04, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

And yet you were reverted again by another user for WP:OR and non-WP:RS [14]. I would advise you to stop commenting on me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

You advise me not to comment on you but you comment on me HazaraHistorian (talk) 23:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

HoI is commenting on your behavior. And you're doing a great job of demonstrating that your behavior is in conflict with Wikipedia's policies. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:09, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@HazaraHistorian The matter at hand is whether you understand Wikipedia policies such as WP:Reliable sources and WP:No original research. Your edits appear to demonstrate that you do not. —C.Fred (talk) 23:09, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

HazaraHistorian's recent addition of "Origins" to the Ghaznavid article. The talk page discussion received no response, after I quoted from the source they provided(which made no mention of the middle east) and then I provided sources stating unequivocally the origins of Sabuktigin(ie. Ghaznavids). I would have to say HazaraHistorian does not understand original research. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:38, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Uzbek.Patriot101, a blocked user and sock just posted this in response to my ANI thread [15] about their random WP:ASPERSIONS/WP:NPA, where they said the following; "I know who HistoryofIran is because I also have another friend who is a editor and wiki editor HazaraHistorian he told me about HistoryofIran.". Uzbek.Patriot101 is also the sock [16] of Darkl1yy, who created the Karakhanid-Samanid war [17], whose deletion thread HazaraHistorian protested against here in the ANI thread: "Can you also ask him why he put the deletion request template on the Karakhanid-Sassanid War page, other than the reason of it being against what he likes." --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:51, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

  sigh We're going to wind up with another WP:CTOP around Turkey eventually... — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

User:HiLo48 and incivility

Hello. A few days ago, I opened a requested move at Talk:Bill O'Reilly (political commentator). While I have seen some valid arguments opposing my proposed move to Bill O'Reilly and the idea of it being a primary topic (the only other page that exists under this name is one about an Australian cricketer), one user at the talk page, User:HiLo48, has felt the need to make fun of others who disagree with them, making comments about how they will "mock any comment that shows an ignorance of cricket," as well as calling those who lack knowledge about cricket "parochial Americans." Personally, I believe this is unacceptable and violates the core policy of WP:CIVILITY, and while I have tried to explain to them that they should be commenting specifically on why the move itself wouldn't work, and not make fun of others who disagree, they seem to be set in their ways about mocking the sentiments of those who disagree with them. I didn't want to take this here, but their comments about how, among other things, American contributors should "learn more about the world outside of [their] borders" seem unnecessarily rude, and they certainly have no place in a page move discussion, regardless of how "ridiculous" it might be to them. JeffSpaceman (talk) 12:38, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

JeffSpaceman, I'd just rise above HiLo48's potshots, as tedious as they may be. Continuing to engage with this person will waste your time because, unlike you, HiLo48 is probably enjoying this fight and your discomfort on some level.

The page move decision will be on consensus, not the volume or tenor or one person's posts.

I'm not an admin; they may decide otherwise. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 13:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your advice -- I think I will take it and stop engaging with them. I am trying to get through to them and assume good faith (as I try to with a lot of people on here), but that clearly just isn't working. Thank you for your kind words. JeffSpaceman (talk) 14:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

"HiLo48 is probably enjoying this fight and your discomfort on some level." Basically, HiLo48 is behaving like a troll, intentionally trying to provoke you. Please try not to answer in kind, because emotional outbursts never end well in Wikipedia. Dimadick (talk) 21:09, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment JeffSpaceman has also fallen for the classic trap of not checking the archives before proposing a move that has been shot down on multiple occasions. HiLo48 may be slightly glib at talk but the truth is that the American newsreader Bill O'Reilly simply isn't globally relevant enough to make this move. At best he's a washed up former debate partner to Jon Stewart and a generally disgraced journalist. Simonm223 (talk) 14:56, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  I will admit fault at not checking the archives, since I tend to just check whatever is currently on the talk page (something that typically works for me on pages that aren't updated as relatively regularly as O'Reilly's, but clearly didn't work this time). At the same time, I don't believe that HiLo48's snarking is a good way to go about it, since civility is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia. Personally, I think that there are better ways of getting the opinion that they hold across (including in ways that other users who have opposed have used as reasoning). JeffSpaceman (talk) 15:09, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

While I doubt that this thread will result in any sort of formal action being taken, it would be nice if an uninvolved admin could go to Hilo's talk page and explain why it is not appropriate for them to mock any comment that shows an ignorance of cricket or refer to other editors as parochial Americans. These are bright-line violations of our civility policy and they clearly run afoul of the collaborative spirit required here. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm willing to block people for bludgeoning, incivility, or discrimination based on where someone is from. I don't really see that here, though. I just see someone threatening to do that. If that happens, I'll block or topic ban. I'm tired of dramamongering in articles related to American politics, and I think maybe the topic area needs to be cleared out. If anyone is tempted to engage in dramamongering, they should consider this before posting. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate, are you saying that HiLo48’s comments are OK and that JeffSpaceman is to blame? His proposal, even if ultimately not the best, certainly is within the realm of reasonable. It seems tendered in good faith. His reactions to HiLo48 seem civil. HiLo48’s don’t. As for American politics, I’m sure the majority of Americans would also like the drama dialed down in the U.S.

As for your comment, ”I think maybe the topic area [American politics] needs to be cleared out” - what are your intentions? A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Great. More dramamongering. Did JeffSpaceman threaten to bludgeon or mock anyone? If not, what I wrote probably doesn't apply. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: No; but they don't seem too fond of being reminded of their own responsibilities in the area; I imagine it's more satisfying getting one's opponents hung out to dry at ANI. While they can do what they like with AC/DS notices, of course, it's always interesting to see how positive a response is. Or not, as the case might be. SN54129 16:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, they did snap back on Simonm223's talk page, and I interpreted "I am not going to explain this a second time" as enough of a threat to check whether or not they were an administrator (to see if they would or could follow through on such a threat), but I agree that none of this rises to the level of warranting action. While "parochial" (as in Wiktionary's description, "characterized by an unsophisticated focus on local concerns to the exclusion of wider contexts") is absolutely a correct descriptor for Americans of the belief that their pet newsbarker exceeds in notability a top athlete in a sport of intense popularity pretty well everywhere else on the planet, it's still an insult even if in jest, and Wikipedians should not be throwing it at other Wikipedians for any reason. All of that being said, calling attention to drama is rarely a suitable approach to squelching it. Can we all agree to go do something else? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I will say that I shouldn't have said the "I am not going to explain this a second time." I think I was just angry with what you correctly point out is an insult that should not be used against other users on here. I appreciate your forthright approach here, Ivanvector. JeffSpaceman (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I left Hilo a note and I hope they'll consider it. Mackensen (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Here's a question I have to ask though - and I know it's irrelevant to the general policies at a RM discussion, but this sort of thing always bugs me. When someone types "Bill O'Reilly" into Wikipedia, looking for the (incredibly famous) cricketer or one of the other people at the dab page - do we really want to say to them "no, the one you're looking for is this guy who if you don't live in the USA you've probably never heard of, and who is best known for inventing sensational news stories and abusing women"? I'd say we probably don't. Black Kite (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

"" "I'm tired of dramamongering in articles related to American politics" O'Reilly is not particularly relevant to politics, American or otherwise. He is just a former television presenter and a notorious hack writer, whose main claim to fame is a series of scandals concerning non-consensual sex. Dimadick (talk) 21:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I accept the premise. I have no stake in the RM, but you're asserting without proving that the cricketer is more famous than the media personality. Leaving aside any question of morality (e.g. who should be better known), how do we know that? The page views point the other way. The media personality article exists in 32 languages, against 9 for the cricketer. If this speaks to the outsize influence of American media on the rest of the world, then I apologize, but we have to take the world as we find it. Mackensen (talk) 19:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  However, are we a popularity site or a work of reference? As I asked in the RM, should a musical act that lasted all of seven years be the primary topic over a millennia-old foundational spiritual concept, just because of pageviews? Zaathras (talk) 20:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Well, you said it yourself. I don't think anyone would make that argument. If they did, I don't think it would convince many people. The example is inapposite. Mackensen (talk) 22:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Editors are literally making that argument now, to rename the article based only on pageview arguments. Zaathras (talk) 00:43, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  With Bill O'Reilly yes, we're speaking of two men, one alive, one dead, who lived within a few decades of each other. Pageviews may well be relevant since we can't evaluate lasting importance. Your analogy, involving a millennia-old foundational spiritual concept and a recent rock band, doesn't speak to this issue, and that's what I was responding to. By all means, if Nirvana gets moved on the strength of pageviews I'll reconsider. Mackensen (talk) 03:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Well, in a way we can. The cricketer last played an international match 77 years ago and is still talked about as one of the best players in the second-most popular sport in the world. I'd be very surprised if the "political commentator" that has more pageviews (because controversy and being American) is likely to be remembered 77 years after his last rant on the Internet - wouldn't you? Indeed, if pageviews weren't being taken into account here, I'd say the cricketer should be at the base article name. Black Kite (talk) 09:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  Ehh we’ll cross that bridge in c. 77 years Dronebogus (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  In 77 years, I hope someone still remembers Bill O'Reilly's exceptional performance in the field of falafel-based sexual harassment. --JBL (talk) 00:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  ...I don't even want to ask. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:22, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Snow Rise: Oh, this is so worth knowing about :). See the end of section 78 of the first harassment lawsuit (NSFW) against him. --17:24, 14 July 2023 (UTC) JBL (talk) 17:24, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Mackensen: I'm fairly sure I've heard a number of people making arguments that the programming language should be the primary topic for Java based mostly on page view type arguments. At the very least people have said there is no primary topic. Edit: I initially posted this on my phone so didn't bother to check the history but now I'm not I checked and sure enough it was about 14 months ago that a move was proposed on that premise [18]. True the specific claim of the programming language being the primary topic got FWIW no support (the closer said "Pretty much a snowball close", I don't actually see anyone other than the proposer who supported it). There was however a bit more support there being no primary topic (albeit at least some was abandoned) and you can see the several previous proposals listed in the history which again were mostly of the no primary topic variety but with some the programming language is the primary topic variety. While you might argue the failure of these RMs proves that the community will get it right, I'd argue that the persistence of these good faith but clearly flawed proposals does demonstrate why people tend to get annoyed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:56, 16 July 2023 (UTC) 08:50, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne Yes. An assumption of good faith means that a clearly flawed RM springs from ignorance, not malice. It's an opportunity to educate, not belittle, and the community generally gets move requests right, or at least not wrong. Mackensen (talk) 15:01, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Mackensen: I don't disagree on the need to educate. OTOH, it's also true that editors, especially editors with some experience, really need to consider some variant of WP:BEFORE, so when making a proposal that common sense would suggest has surely been made before, really should look into the previous discussions and consider how likely it is is things will be different this time. And if they can't find them, perhaps rather than jumping straight into an RM, first asking hey am I missing something, why are our articles titled this way? More importantly though IMO your earlier comment makes it sounds like such things never happen, no one ever proposes them and they will never pass. In reality we have IMO clear evidence they are at least proposed. And actually I'm fairly sure some cases involving more minor examples have passed. Some of these may have eventually been fixed. Some of them are probably still like that and may one day be fixed but haven't been yet. There's no reason to think the contrary since flawed community decisions happen all the time especially when there is low participation and the significance may not be obvious. Or to put it a different way while HiLo48's comments were IMO way way over the line (as unfortunately they often are) and exceedingly unhelpful, your comments here were IMO far less extreme but at least partly in the same vein. I mean if you want to argue that the Bill O'Reilly case is dissimilar, that's fine you're entitled to make such an argument. But to be so dismissive of the good faith concerns of others as you did above is also unhelpful when experience with Wikipedia should tell you even before I provided an IMO reasonably equivalent example that it has happened before, and will happen again. Nil Einne (talk) 18:55, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, that's why I said my comment is probably irrelevant to policy, I was more theorising about an IAR "what should we do" scenario. Having said that, looking at the RM the status quo is likely to be upheld anyway. Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

  Generally speaking, yes, we do want that. We're not here to judge (and especially not to influence) what are the most likely to be searched topics; our role is, once the most likely topic is reasonably determined, to get the most readers to the information they're looking for with the least amount of effort. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC already covers the hypothetical case that Bill O'Reilly the Fox News personality is a much more (like, a lot more) likely topic amongst readers globally than Bill O'Reilly the accomplished cricketer, but that's not the case here. Disregarding the guideline over a morality panic would not be a good use of IAR. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I've both disagreed with and defended HiLo48 on and off for about 14 years. It may be cultural for them to have rough-and-tumble conversations, including with friends. I find them to be refreshingly blunt without all of the underlying vitrol and clever wiki-warfare that underlies most of our drama situations. Not saying that that should make anything OK, but it's useful to understand it in that context. North8000 (talk) 20:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Conversely, IMHO HiLo48 should also calibrate. Understand that what may be OK routine rough and tumble conversation in other venues might be the equivalent of tossing hand grenades in the Wikipedia venue. North8000 (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)

An interesting, unusual dynamic in this dispute: each Bill O'Reilly is very important and noteworthy to a passionate, large group (hundreds of millions). Almost every member of one group has no interest in or even knows of the other Bill O'Reilly. The circles in the Venn Diagram are huge, flamboyantly colored and barely touch, let alone overlap.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 22:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Given that William Joseph O'Reilly is deceased (and therefore incapable of political commentary), obviously the best resolution here would be for Wikipedia editors to convince William James O'Reilly Jr. to take up cricket. --JBL (talk) 00:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

How many times does this topic come up? Surely at some point we need to do something. I've dealt with this editor many times and although I can get a little dry in my humour, at least I play the ball and not the man. I find wikipolicy generally settles disputes, not raising one's voice and making discussion so unpleasant that the abuser wins by default.

If we use this sort of procedure to create our encyclopaedia then it shows and well-meaning newbies are scared off. On that point, HiLo seems to take a particular delight in "welcoming" new editors by making comments about their mistakes, often using some sort of passive aggression to boot home the message and making assumptions about motives, if not morals.

I appreciate the sort of wikignome work he does tirelessly and without complaint but perhaps a little more tolerance of fellow editors wouldn't hurt. Can we get a commitment to be nicer, or are we going to be reading the same old anti-American diatribes again and again? Doesn't that come under the heading of racism? Do we tolerate that sort of thing? --Pete (talk) 10:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I said somewhere in the sea of words above that throwing fuel on the fire is a poor way to deal with drama, and calling anything that happened here "racism" is exactly that. It is a very long way off from racism to note the documented tendency of the archetypal American to be disinterested or entirely unaware of the world happening outside of their own borders, as discussed for example in The Hill, The benefits of American disinterest in world affairs; Washington Post, Do Americans care about the rest of the world?; The University of Buffalo, Researcher says Americans are "deluded" regarding what they know about the rest of the world; Pew Research Center, The problem of American exceptionalism; Council on Foreign Relations, Americans lack knowledge of international issues yet consider them important; or Forbes, The American public's indifference to foreign affairs. It is also not racism, and frankly not a personal attack, to challenge an argument on the basis of it being grounded in this noted American parochialism, though as I said using it as an ad hominem crosses a very bright line. That said: calling this incident racism is just inflammatory rhetoric, whether you intended it or not, and not only does it not help to solve anything happening here, it also cheapens genuine discussions about real, systemic, institutionalized oppression. That is in fact an incredibly serious issue, and the term deserves not to be thrown around casually and haphazardly like this. I must also note here that baselessly accusing editors of racism crosses that same very bright line.

As for HiLo48, they're aware of this discussion, and hopefully will absorb the criticism of their approach (although their most recent responses seem to indicate they instead feel justified in their "blunt" approach, which this non-American administrator suggests they should not). If they're also causing problems for new editors I have not seen evidence of it, but if they are they need to knock it off yesterday. Many an editor who felt their collection of contributions outweighed the civility policy have had that opinion noted in their block log. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just sweep it all under the carpet. Again. Until some well-meaning editor runs afoul of some harsh comments. Again.

I chose that word carefully. Here is an extract from WP:NPA:

Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based on race, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, religious or political beliefs, disability, ethnicity, nationality, etc. directed against another editor or a group of editors. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.

The colour of one's skin or the colour of one's passport; in the eyes of Wikipedia it is all one when derogatory remarks are directed against another editor. This is one of our fundamental pillars.

Americans are a diverse bunch. I have many American friends and family and for every one of them who disagrees with my politics there are others who are shoulder to shoulder. Some are insular, some are well-versed in the world, some are this and some are that.

I make the point that Americans who are also Wikipedia editors might be reasonably accepted as having views and attitudes that are broader and better-informed than the average. I'll accept that many Americans are insular and ignorant of the wider world. But that is definitely not true of many Americans of my acquaintance and I suggest that American Wikipedians are more open to other views, other eyes, other minds than the mass, simply by being part of the project. There is a degree of self-selection in play.

I am chided for adding fuel to the fire. A valid point, but if so, then just what has HiLo been doing for years and years but just exactly that? There seems to be no capacity for acceptance and repentance and understanding on just how hurtful his remarks might be. Passions rise, discussion becomes inflamed, and we end up dealing with the fire here on a regular basis.

I'm not seeking to raise the temperature here with ill-advised comments. I'm looking to find out the truth and I think a big part of the truth in general Wikipedia editing is disruption caused by heated personal attacks. What goes on in this forum is - by definition - out of the main stream of routine editing. Can we at least work towards making Wikipedia a safer, more welcoming, cooperative place for editors of all levels of experience and nationality? --Pete (talk) 16:29, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree that HiLo’s comments are obnoxious and casually xenophobic, but they barelyrise to the level of offensive conduct. What are we even supposed to do here? Dronebogus (talk) 12:10, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

It's the long term behaviour. Offensive to other editors, unable to accept there is a problem, unwilling to accept that there is a community setting the standards and enforcing the rules.

We accept all manner of views and reasons for editing and styles of participation. That's fine. His participation is as welcome as anyone else's.

But we can't have someone ignoring one of our basics - WP:NPA - if they also set themselves up as a sort of wikipoliceman as this guy does with his "welcomes" to new editors who offend him for whatever reason.

He's not participating here in this forum because he knows that if he says nothing, it will all go away and he can keep on driving his own bus the same way it's happened dozens of times before. Until it happens again.

I'd like to see a commitment to lift his game, and I'd like to see that backed up by the community of editors who don't want to see the disruptive behaviour continue.

I don't know how that's going to happen, though. Look at his user page. He is one of those people who melts down when shown that the facts contradict their opinions and it is just heartbreaking to see such anguish.

I don't have the deft touch to steer him calmly into safe waters. As a diplomat I make a good hockey player. --Pete (talk) 19:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

HiLo's behavior at the requested move was pretty uncivil. He said that Jeff has a "standard American lack of knowledge of cricket and lack of respect for history", as well as is a "parochial American". Directly aimed at Jeff. He called Jeff lacking in knowledge because he's an American. That's a personal attack. HiLo treats the discussion as if having deep knowledge of a subject gives your !vote more weight, and when Iamreallygoodatcheckers said subject knowledge wasn't relevant, he called that "wikilawyering". SWinxy (talk) 06:12, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

HiLo48: courtesy break

Before we go running off and closing this thread as no action taken, I want to attest to HiLo's behavior being extremely difficult to work with at WP:ITN. He seems completely incapable of having any sort of civil discussion where he doesn't immediately erupt into bursts of all-caps and shouting. A difference in user conduct is to be expected given differing cultural backgrounds, but some of these diffs go beyond the pale:

[19]You clearly cannot read!!!! My opposition is NOT because the event is only relating to a single country. It's because it's about one PARTICULAR country, the USA!!!! I simply cannot imagine this getting any support at all if it happened in any other country. It's pure and blatant US-centrism. - Edit summary: "Stupid argument!!! Can't you read????"

[20]Not another one!!!!! We are getting blurb nominations every few days at present. WE NEED BETTER RULES!!!!!

[21]IT CANNOT BE PROVEN!!!!!! You have been told why. You are asking for the impossible. You are proving nothing with that demand. Read what others say carefully please, think about it, then bugger off!!! - Edit summary reads likewise

[22]WHY ARE THE ADMINS IGNORING THIS??? Several Admin actions have occurred since the most recent comment above. My question is a serious one.

[23]In a time critical environment, ignoring it for that long simply isn't good enough. You want the glory of being an Admin? Do your job!!!! If you can't do it, something really needs to change.

Just a few examples. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:12, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

That’s pretty embarrassing conduct that would get a newbie blocked. I think a topic ban from ITN might be necessary. Dronebogus (talk) 12:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I mean yes, ITN/C has its problems. Yes, lots of people don't like ITN and think it ought to be removed from the Main Page. Yes, you can argue there's just as much a civil POV pushing problem going on that page as there is with HiLo's incivility. However, if you look back in history to when he was previously topic banned from ITN for similar comments, this rises to the level of chronic activity. Or is this actually allowable as long as he's telling someone to "bugger off" and not actually calling them a slur? Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:20, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I read HiLo’s talk page reply anc rant archive userpage and it’s pretty clear that, despite assertions to the contrary, they hold some chauvinistic views towards Americans. Their overall attitude seems combative an incomparable with Wikipedia. Dronebogus (talk) 12:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@WaltCip: I looked in the usual places but don't see any record of HiLo48 having been banned from ITN in the past. Do you have a link for that sanction? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:06, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Here you go. It was a very long time ago, admittedly, back in 2012 and I had thought it was sooner than that. I'm not certain whether this would lessen the significance of it. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

One thing that has changed is he is no longer calling people "fucking morons" so in that sense, this current behavior a significant improvement as it no longer includes direct personal attacks. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I also found these:

• HiLo and Pregnancy Ban Proposal (ANI October 2011, archived without closure)
• HiLo48 civility (ANI July 2012, ITN topic ban imposed)
• Wikipedia:Requests for comment/HiLo48 (RFC/U October 2012, closed because HiLo48 refused to participate)
• User:HiLo48 (ANI October 2012, HiLo48's incivility noted as "unnecessary, tiresome and counterproductive" but closed for no admins willing to act after reasonable time)
• HiLo48 block review (ANI February 2013: HiLo48 had been blocked "indefinite (or until this editor demonstrates s/he understands it's not ok to refer to other editors as "nutters" or "fools" per WP:BLOCK#PREVENTATIVE"; indef block endorsed as noted by the closing admin but they reduced it to 7 days anyway))
• Personal Attacks by HiLo48 against Collingwood26 (ANI November 2013, HiLo48 blocked for personal attacks, then unblocked; OOP indeffed)
• HiLo48's incivility (ANI April 2014, closed with no action)
• Personal attacks from HiLo48 (ANI October 2014, closed with no action)

Note that these incidents were all within a span of roughly 3 years between 2011-2014, and their block log also mirrors this period. A common theme in these is a closing admin noting the problematic behaviour but referring the discussion to RFC/U, which was a handy catch-22 as RFC/U would not consider complaints if the user being discussed did not participate, and so in many of these cases action should have been taken but was not. However, there have been no other discussions (other than one which was frivolous, and this one) and no more blocks since December 2014, which suggests either that HiLo48 learned something from being reported so many times, or that the community got tired of reporting an unblockable and having admins pass the buck.

Their recent behaviour at ITN (from WaltCip's diffs) suggests they're returning to their decade-past disruptive outbursts, but it would be a stretch to call this a pattern based on four edits over three months (one of the diffs is a duplicate). I think all that's warranted here is a warning that civility is required regardless of who your opponent is or what you believe their motivations are, and that further incidents will result in blocks. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:53, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

In general long-term productive editors are given a lot of leeway for obvious bad-faith lashings-out compared to newbies who might get an insta-indef. while in some ways this is understandable (thousands of good edits to one personal attack is a net positive; 100 edits entirely of angry POV warring isn’t) it’s also disturbing that we’re starting to let things like literal vandalism slide from experienced users Dronebogus (talk) 14:20, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

That edit was 7 months ago, but if you wanted to bring it up there's already a thread about that editor on this page. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

…and as you can see it’s closed. I was bringing it up as an example of the abysmal standards we have for behavior from well-established editors. Dronebogus (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

That example was instantly self-reverted. Do you have other examples? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:02, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

It doesn’t matter that it was self-reverted, in fact that’s basically system gaming because an experienced (or even novice) editor would know there is zero tolerance for vandalism on WP. So vandalism and subsequent “lol just kidding” is still vandalism. Dronebogus (talk) 18:37, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

This goes back for a while. I only posted those as a current example, but HiLo has recently been posting on and off on ITN for more than a year. This is a sample of some of his behavior and absolutely does not represent the totality of his behavior at ITN/C, which I could certainly compile if I had the time in the day to do so. But if you think a warning - a FIRM warning - will do then so be it. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 15:40, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Note that they keep editing while this discussion continues, but they did not show up here. I am afraid all wishes that they take the criticism onboard are wishful thinking until they show up here and acknowledge the existence of the issues.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I suspect that HiLo48 is watching this. Maybe they're too humiliated to participate? I could sure see why. Their peers are wondering out loud if their future contributions are worth the aggravation of any further bad behaviour.

In any event, if they like editing Wikipedia, they should understand that many people are now aware of their negative behaviour and watching. They should understand they've just had their "last bite at the apple" before serious sanctions, even an indefinite block.

They've played their last remaining "but they're a productive editor" pass.

On the plus side, nobody's asking them to do anything exceptional -- just be polite like most everyone else. That's all. They can even secretly despise each one of the 335 million Americas alive on the planet -- they just have to keep it to themselves and treat them like everyone else. A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Of course he's watching this discussion. He doesn't participate for two reasons:

1. If he doesn't say anything, it will get set aside with no action taken. Like always.

2. He's pants at polite discussion. If someone contradicts him - like with facts and diffs and stuff - he blows up and melts down and lashes out. That sort of behaviour doesn't help when people are discussing his behaviour.

Perhaps he might be induced to make a statement on his talk page or similar protected area where he can feel secure in simply removing responses he feels are upsetting him? -- Pete (talk) 20:07, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• I was introduced to the move discussion through this ANI and I have to agree that HiLo48's general attitude towards those with whom they disagree is problematic.[24] It's weird to me that a simple move discussion is contentious, but HiLo48's comments certainly haven't helped the tone despite multiple editors asking for people to tone it down. This behavior shouldn't be ignored. Nemov (talk) 13:25, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  Well that’s… (sunglasses) just not cricket. Dronebogus (talk) 21:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• I just want to highlight this comment in particular, which was made after most of this ANI discussion. I know this is a foreign concept to most Americans, so they need to defer to people who do know about it. I don't know if this is HiLo's intent, but I read this as saying certain people shouldn't be allowed to participate in a discussion or that their input is less valuable on the basis of their nationality, which would be a bright red line on xenophobia. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  He didn't say they couldn't participate or that their input is less valuable, just that American editors need to acknowledge their limitations. Like trying to impose the American concept of a "bright red line"; most will recognise this as a gaff, inadvertently proving Hilo's point, but many people around the would would see it as an example of American cultural imperialism. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah I agree, I would personally not have tried to evoke the silly concept of a "bright red line", which to me evokes thoughts of some recent events that happened on the international stage when America was playing world police. If there is a case to be made against HiLo, this isn't it. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 11:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  ...What limitations? --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 03:56, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  That most of them don't know about a global sport. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  A global sport that’s only played in the commonwealth because Britain introduced it. Let’s drop the “imperialism” natter. Dronebogus (talk) 14:44, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what you mean by your second sentence, and the commonwealth is still all over the world and quite significant; I don't get your point here. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  The second part was kind of a response to Hawkeye7, it was admittedly kind of unclear. But I think we’re digressing too much over whether it’s socially acceptable to be ignorant of cricket and not focusing on the fact that this user is frequently uncivil and combative. Dronebogus (talk) 15:05, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

• Not even sure if I'm posting this comment in the right place with how messy this AN/I is, but purposeful incivility has been an unceasing issue with HiLo48 for years now. As an example to demonstrate this, I recall an interaction with them from nearly four years ago in which they insisted on making all of their comments bolded, uppercase, and with innumerable exclamation marks, was asked kindly to not WP:SHOUT, and responded by specifically stating that they were deliberately being uncivil. I reached out asking that they not be intentionally belligerent, and they responded on my talk with further belligerence, doubled down on their knowing disregard for "precious sensitivities" because shouting (in their opinion) helped them to get what they wanted, and then ignored attempts to close the discussion on my own talk page. And even during (and after) these discussions, it was pointed out by others that this is a longstanding issue with HiLo48's editing. I'm only focusing on such an old example not to dogpile or to focus excessively on old news, but rather to make the point that this not a new problem; it's one that needed correcting a very long time ago, but never was. Comparing how HiLo acted then to how they act today (as seen by the many diffs provided by WaltCip) shows that nothing has changed for the better.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 03:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

HiLo: How to fix

HiLo hasn't commented; presumably he thinks it's fine to abuse other editors based on nationality.

Because we never do anything about it. --Pete (talk) 16:04, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I was prepared to say that I too was of two minds on this when reading the initial portion of the thread. On the one hand, context is king, as the old saying goes, and I can see some circumstances in which the comments that are quoted by the OP could be taken in a affable light. But then I actually went and looked at the context. First HiLo apparently said "standard American lack of respect for history" followed up by "That too is a standard response from parochial Americans. It's NOT an insult. It's an invitation to you to learn more about the world outside your borders" I'm sorry, but how is this not a textbook WP:PA of one of the worst sorts? This is literaly item number one on the list of "types of comments that are never acceptable" (emphasis in original), according to the section of the policy "What is considered to be a personal attack?":

"Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based on race ... ethnicity, nationality, etc. directed against another editor or a group of editors."

This is not sassy "glibness", or blunt straight talk: it's just plain small-minded, bigoted regurgitation of tired stereotypes that serve no function other than to incite outrage in others and signal the speaker's general small-mindedness and willingness to reach for the most offensive representation of another editor's motives: that is a presumption of sheer ignorance on the part of your rhetorical opponent. This kind of behaviour has no place on this project and editors (American or otherwise) are very right to be upset with this and concerned about what it says that we are not nipping this sort of thing in the bud the second the first pair of community eyes falls on it. Do we really not have a single admin here willing to block such a brightline violation of WP:CIV? That surprises me, because there are names attached to mops that I respect in this discussion already. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:21, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

And let me add that such would be my opinion if I was basing it just upon those comments initially alluded to by the OP. To see it followed by those additional diffs that can only be described as histrionic meltdowns? This seems to be an editor with tonal and self control issues that should have been addressed a long time ago. Indeed, I'm also pretty certain this is not nearly HiLo's first time here when it comes to this kind of thing; I did not participate in previous occasions his conduct was brought here, that I can recall, but I do feel confident in saying I've seen something like "HiLo and civility" in a discussion header here at least a dozen times over the years. Stopping to look at the conduct this time, it's clear why.

I'm not familiar enough with the overall conduct to feel comfortable making a proposal for an appropriate preventative sanction, but if someone else does and it's reasonable, I am prepared to strongly consider support. HiLo could have shown up to defend this cluster of behaviour: their choice not to means I have to assume the pattern will persist if we don't do something. A block, TBANS...something seems called for. We can't let our editors/community members run around making these kinds of comments, stoking nationalistic rhetoric and division, in plain view of everyone. I try to avoid emotive appeals whenever possible, especially in a context like ANI, but honestly, it's an embarrassment that we even have to debate this. If these kinds of comments don't get an administrative or community response, I don't know what the point of having WP:CIV and WP:PA are. I really was starting to feel the community was turning a corner on "popularity armor" when it came to these kinds of issues, but the fact that this hasn't been acted on in the last couple of weeks makes me wonder.

So if an admin is not willing to step in on this on their own onus, let's have an !vote, and we'll see what the community thinks about the idea of casually dismissing another editor by talking about "ignorant/myopic Americans" (or "loud Italians" or "drunken Irish" or "defeatist French" or "violent Africans" or "calculating Asians" or any other easy, stupid, hateful stereotype that we might slot in there). SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Here's a random community opinion for you. I don't think much of the idea of casually dismissing an entire race of people in words like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Stolen_Generations&diff=prev&oldid=853625286. This is from an editor who later tried to shoehorn a poor quality source into the Stolen Generations article: [[25]].

Yes, anyone who's been around for a while knows that HiLo and Skyring don't get on. It looks to me like this is dragging on because of Skyring's agitation to get HiLo censured by any means possible. Good on HiLo for not taking the bait.

The notion that Americans have little interest in the world outside their borders is a cheap stereotype but isn't racist. It's well known that Americans are one of the tiniest minnows in international cricket. It's no more racist to point that out than it is to point out the absence of an even vaguely competitive gridiron team in Australia.

But basically we have two editors to contend with here. HiLo is blunt, abrasive and a net positive to Wikipedia. Skyring is polite, calm and a net negative to Wikipedia. Are we here to build an encylopaedia, or are we here to have a dinner party? Daveosaurus (talk) 13:16, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:NPA is a policy, you don't just dismiss with with "are we here to have a dinner party?" and excuse poor behavior. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:46, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I've heard about Skyring (btw why is his sig "Pete"?)—'s poor behavior, but I have not seen why they are a net negative while HiLo is a net positive. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Some people have too much “fun” creating screwy signatures. Hence why mine has always been the default. Dronebogus (talk) 17:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm more asking why it doesn't violate WP:CUSTOMSIG/P. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

It pretty clearly does but that’s the least of our concerns here Dronebogus (talk) 17:57, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Can’t we just censure both for casual racism/xenophobia? Dronebogus (talk) 17:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, or if there is no appetite for that for this particular user at this moment in time (which is unfortunate but not entirely unheard of a when a long term editor acts in a thoroughly unacceptable way but makes the conservative tactical choice not to comment here), then the least that should be done is to give a final warning, so the next time it happens, the community's lack of tolerance for any further such is a matter of record. That shouldn't be necessary, mind you, when we are talking about a bigoted screed, but it's better to get half the job done in this thread than nothing at all. (Bearing in mind that I for one would still consider supporting a limited and tailored sanction to get HiLo's attention, but don't get the feeling that's where this is headed). SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:17, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I think there's a consensus above to treat this as a final warning. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:29, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I hope the closer reaches the same conclusion. I'm still pretty concerned about the milktoast response from the community here, given the specifics of the conduct. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:38, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

If this is the final warning it must be logged in at the talk page of the user as such. (Not sure why this is final since they have been blocked before, but fine). If it is not logged we will be back here in a couple of months. Ymblanter (talk) 07:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Daveosaurus, that reasoning is flawed in numerous ways. First off, it's a false choice to suggest we can't address the conduct of both editors in a situation like this. Second, I don't see the value in the suggestion that we should downgrade one editor's clear pattern of abusive language for another--least of all in this kind of area--because it happened to coexist with similar policy violations. Further, as a purely rhetorical/policy matter, it doesn't matter that most Americans take little interest in cricket: the argumentation techniques employed by HiLo here are clearly just stirring the shit: you are meant to comment on the content, the sources, and the policy factors when discussing work on the encyclopedia, not opining on what you perceive to be your rhetorical opponent's failings or gaps in knowledge: even if he had just kept his comments to "Americans know nothing about cricket", that would still be a weak, unconvincing, and problematic discussion style under our policies that should be immediately discouraged. These kinds of comments can do nothing to resolve the content issue and only serve to drag out and personalize things.

But further, and crucially, HiLo went well beyond such unwanted dead-end comments straight into the territory of nationalistic invective. What he said was unambiguously unacceptable: again, it is literally the first, paradigmatic example given at WP:PA for comments that are never acceptable. I don't see the point in arguing whether this is Racist with a capital R; for what it's worth, that's not the first descriptor I would use either (though it's certainly in the same family of observation, make no mistake). It's bigotry, no matter how you slice the rest of the semantic label: the ascribing of supposed personal flaws to a monolithic group. Regardless, it suffices that it is unambiguously against policy, unquestionably a bad faith behaviour, and clearly WP:disruptive. We regularly block on sight new users exhibiting this exact conduct, and I never see any hand-wringing about whether their behaviour was "that bad" when we do.

This combined with the other demonstrations here of a longtime pattern of incivility and losing his cool in a frankly childish manner when confronted with opposition paint the picture of someone who does not respect our community behavioural guidelines, in that the shortfalls between their conduct and what is expected of them has clearly been pointed out to them numerous times. Inaction is clearly enabling this to persist, and the community has recently had declining patience for the "net positive" argument for doing nothing in cases of brightline behavioural issues, for very understandable reasons. If Skyring has done anything nearly as bad as we've seen presented here for HiLo, by all means, let us look at that and consider action there. As to HiLo, I am convinced: this user needs to hear from the community that under no uncertain terms will this trading in comments about the supposed shortcomings of the people of X country be tolerated. It has no place in an open project like this, where inclusion is a mandate and your comments are meant to be avoiding personalizing discussion anyway. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:17, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Daveosaurus, Ben Roberts-Smith was awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry but it has subsequently emerged he committed a number of atrocious war crimes. By your argument we should overlook the latter because of the former. 1.136.105.123 (talk) 21:30, 13 July 2023 (UTC).

I love a good analogy, but it is very easy to slip into reductio ad absurdum with them, as you’ve just proven, IP. — Trey Maturin™ 21:37, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Inclined to agree: an example from such another universe of misdeed that it can only really inflame and muddy the waters. Nevertheless, the underlying point that existed before the IP's hyperbolic example remains: we don't give community members free passes on violations of pillar policies just because they've been here long enough to accrue a body of positive mainspace edits. ...Well, actually, as a community we routinely have in the past, but we shouldn't. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:43, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Possibly Confused Comments

I made the mistake of reading this series of posts, and I either have missed the request for administrative action, or have concluded that there isn't a request for administrative action. This isn't as much of a tentacled monster as the discussion about BHG and her enemies and categories, but it is at least as confusing, because I can't see the call for administrative action. I see that the discussion is mostly about:

• Insults to Americans. (Many Americans ignore national insults.)
• Two people with the same name, a great Australian sportsman, and an American who should be forgotten.
• National differences in sports and in interests in sports.

As soon as User:HiLo48 is mentioned, it seems that the subject gets changed back either to someone else or some other thing about nations.

There are several mostly valid reasons to insult Americans. Ignorance of cricket is not one of them. That sport is international, but is not worldwide. Americans play a different game that has an almost lost common ancestor with cricket, and is also international but not worldwide. It is reasonable to insult an American who is ignorant of another sport of British origin that is worldwide. This month and next, an American who expresses a lack of interest in the worldwide game is probably not so much ignorant as misogynistic.

Is there a request for administrative action, or should this discussion be moved to a subpage or archived or closed? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:47, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

How in the world does misogyny come into it??? EEng 21:02, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Most American sports fans do not usually follow association football as much as other sports, but will be watching the defending champion United States women's national soccer team in the 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup, unless they don't care for women's sports. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah... about that. As much as I'm a big fan of UConn Huskies women's basketball (about as much as the men's team, this year was a mirror image of the more common outcome for each team), if you want a decent summary of my attitude (which is very representative of Americans) towards women's soccer this should do the trick. I only know anything about it because I heard Sue Bird was on the cover of SI, and... did not know it was the Body Issue (I've never understood the appeal) or that she was married to Megan Rapinoe. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

This is going nowhere except on a grand tour of prejudices and their intersection with sports. Can we just get into the inevitable transphobia and get it over with, or better yet actually discuss the topic at hand? Dronebogus (talk) 02:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a discussion below I think Aaron Liu (talk) 21:48, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there's a request to give HiLo a final warning for their insults. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:51, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Since the community has mostly been discussing the side issues, maybe an administrator should give HiLo a final warning as a normal administrative action, and then close this before it becomes another giant squid. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll be honest Robert, I'm having a hard time understanding what you are saying here. There's no need for some kind of formal "request for administrative action" in order for the community to discuss behavioural issues, and if there was, I would say that it was satisfied by the OPs bringing the matter here in the first place. And while there have been short divergences here and there, the bulk of the above discussion is clearly focused on HiLo's poor record for civility in general and the recent unacceptable PAs in particular: the discussion does not look very "confused" to me at all. further, I think your summary of the conduct a) leaves out a lot of the more problematic language, thereby minimizing the community's concerns, and b) just generally does not align with the rough (if non-unanimous) consensus above that this behaviour is in fact not "reasonable" but rather quite serious violations of policy. It's possible I am misunderstanding you, though, because your comments seem to me to go back and forth on whether this is a serious issue or not.

All that said, while heavily disagreeing with your analysis of the situation, I do find that I am agreement with your suggested course of action. Speaking as one community member (un-involved in the underlying disputes but kinda aghast at the behaviour here and the inaction of multiple admins who watched this unfold) I'd be happier if the community sent a more unified message in the form of a sanction for HiLo (even a slap on the wrist half day block or a narrow TBAN would be something), but it doesn't look like that it is going to happen. An admin issuing a formal warning would certainly be better than nothing--ideally it would be logged/relayed to HiLo via his TP and put in the formal close here. But I think I have to agree that the writing is on the wall here: there's not sufficient community will for a sanction here. That mystifies me, personally, but there's insufficient justification in keeping the discussion open indefinitely if it is not leading to a useful conclusion. So let's hope an admin is willing to make the warning and close the thread. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:09, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

User:SnowRise - I wasn't really commenting on the seriousness of the nationalistic attacks by HiLo. I was reading the discussion here in the possibly futile hope that it would enlighten me as to what the offense was. It didn't enlighten me, so I was and still am confused as to what the details of the main issue are, if the main issue is the conduct of HiLo. I will admit that I don't normally get upset by non-Americans who say stupid things about Americans. Either the stupid things are true, or they are not true, and citizens of a big country can ignore stupid comments. I didn't see any specific evidence of a civility problem by HiLo here, although I am aware that there is such a problem. I thought that the discussion here was mostly tangential, which is why I said it was about other things. Maybe I was expected to read several months of archives, but I am not doing that. I didn't see evidence presented here that amounted to a real case against HiLo. Do you want to show me where it is? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello Robert. Like you, I believe it is a dubious use of time to go digging through historical reports for past misdeeds. I do believe that a large and consistent enough pattern of behaviour is worth noting after a time, and I think one exists here, but more to the point, I don't think you need look at anything more than what has already been reported here to be able to appreciate the depth of the problems. That includes some comments that you are clearly aware of but (if I am reading you correctly) are largely dismissing, suggesting the gap between our perspectives is one of philosophy about what is appropriate conduct and speech on this project, rather than a difference in the facts we are working from.

For example, I still feel you are underrating the severity and the damage done by the nationalistic people-bashing comments in question. First off, even if HiLo's comments had been restricted to the message of "you clearly don't know anything about cricket because you are American--therefore get out of my way", that in itself would be a major issue. That's not how we discuss or form consensus on this project, and as someone positioned as an ADR guru on this project, that's something I'm surprised you don't readily agree with me about, and take more seriously. It's a brightline WP:CIR issue when an editor decides to take potshots trying to tear down their rhetorical opposition personally, rather than arguing a priori from the sources, content, and policy.

But HiLo then went far beyond this, beginning to opine more broadly about ignorant Americans with no vision or interest beyond their borders. There is no question that in doing so they leapt straight across any dubious plausible deniability they had for their prejudice and straight into nationalistic WP:PA territory. I respect that you (and probably many of our American editors) have thick enough skin that you can shrug this kind of comment off. That's a character strength. It does not, however, change how unacceptable this kind of comment is, and we don't need you or any one particular American editor to take offense at it before it is a massive problem. Even if the OP had taken no issue with, it would still be a serious violation of core (even pillar) policies, and needing addressing.

Then also in this thread we have a number of diffs of this user losing their ever-loving mind on people in ways that I can only really classify as "TEMPER TANTRUMS, OMG why can't people see what a problem this guy is!!!!!!!!!", to ape the form of these posts. This is somebody who is not exercising the minimum we expect (or at least I thought we expected) for communication in a productive and civil fashion on en.Wikipedia. Worse yet, if you look at this editor's user page, you will see that they themselves have documented that these kinds of observations have been incoming for them for years and years, and yet they have dismissed all such efforts at community intervention (regarding what are clear basic competency issues with regard to discussion) as they themselves being harassed by the "niceness police" or "civility police". This is clear WP:IDHT that, from all indicators, has been going on for well over a decade. Their block log further reflects this.

So, this seems to be a community member who has had more than fair warning that they are falling short of community standards, and yet interprets it consistently as whinging from editors who just don't get how important their contributions are and why they can't be expected to adhere to the normal rules, which they consider an unfair burden. Well, respectfully, at least with regard to this recent wave of behaviour, I think they have been let off lightly up until now. This inaction is not helping the situation with this user, and it's not a good look for us to continue to enable the status quo, simply because of the resistance in this space to sanctioning and established user, relative to a new one. From jut the details established in this thread, HiLo's arguments are often not valid policy arguments, and even cross the line into bigoted invective. What is the argument for tolerating any of this, when it could not be more clearly a violation of WP:PA, WP:CIV, and WP:DISRUPTIVE? SnowRise ^{let's rap} 09:05, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

All that said, this is the end of my contributions to this thread: after four sizeable posts, I don't have anything more novel to add, or better ways to say it. And even as an uninvolved party to the underlying dispute, there comes a time where one more comment begins to look out of proportion. Indeed, I'm only adding these last two posts to respond to your inquiry, clearly made in good faith. I recognize there is not an appetite for a sanction here. I'll repeat that this confuses and worries me. But there should be no doubt that the problems here are real and substantial, whatever our collective response to it. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 09:23, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Snow Rise - You refer to me as an ADR guru. What is ADR? Is it Alternative Dispute Resolution? I don't think it has to do with footnotes. When I mediate disputes, I try to encourage the parties to ignore any personal attacks and will collapse them. Sometimes ignoring any unpleasant comments may make it possible to solve a content dispute. But the reason that I am ignoring the "impersonal attacks", that is, attacks on my nation, is mainly that I haven't seen them, and I don't want to see them. So if I am ignoring the attacks, it is because I am ignoring the attacks, not because I don't think that they are serious. I haven't seen them to assess whether they are serious. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Even just a warning would be sufficient. A thread like this closing with no action sends a message to contributors (and not incidentally, also to admins) that the community has decided violations like these are tolerable because they are not against an unacceptable target and because nothing was done about it in the past. I for one won't stand by idly if disruption like this continues at WP:ITNC, however. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:50, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

I come to this thread after I was thinking of leaving a message at HiLo's talkpage (put it at the article talk instead). From being in the same place as HiLo in various corners of Wikipedia, I think that HiLo is a generally a well-meaning editor but knows their own mind; does not like being challenged on those well-held beliefs (from big, like injustice, to small, like word placement - the reaction is the same); and does not like the idea that others may perceive them negatively, tending to say it is those others' fault somehow. This last one was very much confirmed for me (though not in a Wikipedia context) recently through a discussion about haka, though comments above suggest they've also acknowledged (but relished in) it.
I think that HiLo has got away with such editing attitudes at ITNC, where I see them most, for so long because of how short those discussions last. Regular contributors can expect an erratically-capitalised, strongly-worded, anti-American !vote from HiLo, and possibly some follow-ups if a newbie dare interact with HiLo's comments. But these comments don't warrant response and disappear within a week; they can be easy to ignore (not in the sense of not considering them, if apt, but that they're so routine and fleeting that the fact it's uncooperative no longer affects regulars). Of course, the issue there is that it makes ITNC unwelcoming for newbies, being alarmed both by such comments and the passive attitude towards them. A similar phenomenon may be happening across Wikipedia - that users are familiar with HiLo's MO and don't engage with it, thinking trying to fix it would be fruitless and being so accustomed that it has no effect.
This situation could probably continue, even though it requires concessions from the editing community at large to allow HiLo to continue with the absolutism. However, for the benefit of newer editors who are not accustomed and may feel bullied or such when first interacting, I would agree that the community should probably try to address this. Kingsif (talk) 01:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Is there anything stopping us from having an admin go to HiLo's talk page, give them a formal final warning, and then just close this? IMO this has been in closing territory for nearly a week Aaron Liu (talk) 01:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think that'll fix it. In among it all, HiLo does make useful contributions. The attitude is something deeply entrenched with their editing. I do not think they will be able to immediately change it, certainly not everywhere, and then they'll have gone past their final warning and be gone. Maybe some people want that, but perhaps different steps should be taken. An ITNC TBAN could be useful, or to encourage HiLo to use variations on a standard response in their ITNC !votes. Asking them to drop the all caps would help. Users familiar with HiLo's editing and presence could brainstorm measures to help curb the ... lack of bedside manner, for want of a better short way of describing it. Kingsif (talk) 01:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

How about we combine these and give a final warning before TBAN? Aaron Liu (talk) 01:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah that could be recommended. I meant that, in addition, we could find ways to either encourage or enforce better manner, rather than just say "do it or be banned". I'm not sure it would be effective, but worth a try? Though I understand if everyone thinks that's too much effort. Kingsif (talk) 21:33, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Early on in this discussion, Mackensen left some polite advice on HiLo's talk page to which HiLo responded here.

So far as I know this is his only response to his action and far from expressing regret or remorse at the disruption caused, he blames the targets of his personal attacks as being irrational and ignorant and opinionated. He sees his abuse as serving some sort of corrective purpose because his opinion is always informed, correct, objective, and measured.

His final words on the contributions of other editors are instructive: "I get rather sick of that sort of bullshit."

He has not commented here, he has not made any commitment to improve, he has made no admission of error whatsoever.

This attitude persists through numerous complaints and interactions extending back over a long history here. It is always the other guy, or the entire Wikipedia community at fault.

He doubtless views himself as the victim, and the complaint an ANI discussion as weaponising wikiprocedure against his blameless self.

If he says nothing, then nothing will happen to him - except maybe a warning which may be ignore along with all the others over the years - and his behaviour will not change.

It is one thing to offer correction and advice to those in error or ignorance, but to attack other editors on the basis of nationality or political affiliation or any other personal characteristic is a direct breach of one of our fundamental pillars.

I don't think a "final warning" will have any more effect than the numerous prior warnings, some of them given in rather strict and unambiguous terms.

I think that either HiLo should

1. acknowledge the problem, own his behaviour, and make some firm commitment to improve, or
2. a short block would be something that would focus his attention.

It doesn't mean that we don't want him or his contributions are not welcome, just that he needs to accept that making personal attacks on other editors is something that the community views dimly and they must stop. There is no justification for incivility. --Pete (talk) 01:18, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

If they goes past the final warning to continue their behavior then there will be a block or TBAN, that will get their attention for sure. I don't think we need to go past a final warning right now though. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:01, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Civility restriction

I see that HiLo48 (talk · contribs) has refused to make a comment on this ANI or any concessions anywhere else along the same lines, this seems like WP:IDHT behaviour to me. Thus, I am proposing a community civility restriction:

The community authorizes an indefinite civility restriction for HiLo48 (talk · contribs). If they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, then they may be blocked for a short time of up to one week for repeat offenses. The civility restriction can be appealed to the community after one year since the restriction was imposed, and each year thereafter.

--qedk (t 愛 c) 19:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Version 2:

The community authorizes an indefinite civility restriction for HiLo48 (talk · contribs). If they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, then they may be blocked for a short time up to one week, and up to an indefinite duration for repeat offenses. Blocks resulting from this restriction can only be appealed to the blocking administrator or the community, where community consensus takes precedence. The civility restriction can be appealed to the community after one year since the restriction was imposed or the last enforcemention action (whichever is later), and each year thereafter.

Adding a version 2 based on Cryptic's suggestions. --qedk (t 愛 c) 14:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Shifted ad-hoc discussion below (feel free to revert). --qedk (t 愛 c) 13:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support now that HiLo48 has demonstrated their lack of accountability above below. It never ceases to amaze me how editors with long, well-documented histories of incivility can be so thin-skinned when confronted with fair and valid critiques of their behavior. Don't dish it out if you can't take anything in return. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support as proposer, and the lack of accountability in their latest response. --qedk (t 愛 c) 18:56, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Weak Support because civility restrictions are inherently stupid. The fourth pillar of Wikipedia should be non-negotiable. I started out saying that I wasn't persuaded that a case had been against HiLo48. HiLo48 has made the case. At this point I would support a civility block, and would weakly support a ban of an editor who has shown that they plan to continue to blatantly disregard the fourth pillar of Wikipedia, but those aren't being discussed (yet). Robert McClenon (talk) 19:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
  • • Prefer version 2, which is stronger, to version 1. But the need to impose a civility restriction on HiLo shows that he apparently thinks that civility is for lesser editors. Civility restrictions are stupid because the fourth pillar is a civility rule for all of us. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support though I'm sympathetic to what Robert McClenon said above. Long ago I pleaded to HiLo that "something has to change [...] either your behavior changes, or it doesn't." That much-needed behavioral change never came, and here we are. I don't want to be overly punitive, I just want something binding. A mere reminder that basic civility is not optional has been tried far too many times in the past and met with contempt. As has been pointed out by many throughout this discussion, had a less "established" editor exhibited identical behavior, there'd be no question as to whether a harsher sanction would be in order, be it a block or a topic ban. This civility restriction is a very measured and restrained sanction, which I believe has the potential to be beneficial both for HiLo and for the encyclopedia as a whole. They'll have the ability to continue editing the encyclopedia normally wherever they please, so long as they abide by the basic pillar that one should treat others with respect. So long as they engage in no forms of verbal abuse, be it shouting, insults, or nationalistic or xenophobic remarks — a "restriction" that in reality applies to all editors at all times — they can edit freely. But should this aggressive style of editing continue, and I genuinely wish that it doesn't, I'd push for something more along the lines of a civility block or an ITN/C topic ban.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support Everything about HiLo's attitude and incivility is corrosive to discussions at worst, and unhelpful at minimum. HiLo's response absolutely proves that some sanction is needed, and this is worth trying. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 20:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support - with misgivings. Vanilla Wizard makes the point that civility should be a simple measure for most editors. It's not that HiLo struggles with compliance, he doesn't seem to give a toss about it. Making another editor feel small or inadequate is a way of scoring points in editorial discussion. If this measure is to work, HiLo must accept that his behaviour is inappropriate and commit to comply. Otherwise I lean toward Robert McClenon's view, because the only thing that seems to get any concrete acknowledgement from HiLo is concrete action. I would prefer that this editor keep contributing but with some internal daemon saying, "count to ten", "chill, mate", or simply "No". --Pete (talk) 21:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support. I would have been happy with an acknowledgement from HiLo48 that they understand that their behavior was subpar and would try to do better. But given that their only response to this thread was to express contempt for it, I see no choice but some kind of action. I honestly don't understand what HiLo48 is referring to as "loaded, biased, uncivil, tabloid language", but if they are referring to QEDK's very calm and measured proposal, that's even more concerning. Honestly, this should not be a very controversial proposal: EVERYONE is expected to be civil and should be sanctioned if they are not. The fact that HiLo48 objects to this sounds like they are saying they don't want to be required to abide by our civility policy, or don't expect that they will be capable of it. CodeTalker (talk) 21:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support The fact that this restriction is little more than "if you don't follow the rules we already have, you'll be on the naughty step" and HiLo responded as vociferously as they did is more than enough reason to know it's necessary. Kingsif (talk) 01:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support. HiLo's first response, after much time to cool down, is still showing hostility. SWinxy (talk) 02:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Support v2 SWinxy (talk) 01:35, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support Their comment above shows very clearly their hostility. Their incivility has become a perennial problem, and it's time to do something. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 07:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support: I have the same concerns expressed above by Robert and echoed by others: this is essentially just restatement (indeed, arguably a more milktoast version) of the basic standards of WP:CIV and the normal applicable responses, so in terms of a "sanction" designed to get HiLo to contemplate the mere possibility that there might actually be something even suboptimal in their approach (something HiLo has made abundantly clear they are not prepared to do), this proposal is essentially just air. Nevertheless, this is better than nothing. At least this enters into the record another clear community finding that HiLo's approach to conflict (and their willingness to use Wikipedia as platform to vent their feelings of disdain for a particular nationality) is unacceptable. The fact that this discussion has sat here for three weeks, and not a single admin could be arsed to so much as issue a warning, despite clear community consensus from virtually every community member giving feedback that some serious action is needed here (and is probably years overdue) is, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, deeply perplexing to me.

So I don't know what all this proposal changes in terms of genuine restraint, but it seems we un-mopped are to be left holding water here, and this is the best thing we can do to protect the project in the circumstances. If I am perfectly blunt, this is pretty clearly entering into WP:CIR territory (or rather seems to have some time ago): HiLo very unambiguously does not accept this project's civility standards and has, under no uncertain terms, made it clear that they don't care that such standards exist as an expression of collective community will, or how many times the community finds they have breached said community expectations. They expect the community to accommodate them. They aren't the problem: the "civility police" are the problem--"this place" is the problem. Well, bluntly, if they can't soon make a turn around and accept community will that the problem lays with them, it may well soon be time for "this place" to ask them to move along to what they would consider greener pastures, where their surliness, personal attacks, histrionics, and low-key bigotry will be more easily tolerated. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 22:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Toothless. We regularly block editors with fewer edits and friends for periods as long or longer than the maximum permitted by this redundant "sanction" for edits less disruptive than he's made. The reason no administrator has been willing to block or even explicitly warn yet is because we don't want to deal with the inevitable "you only blocked me because you're an ignorant American" invective and the just-as-inevitable support from his enablers. Something that might be actually meaningful would be to remove the second-mover advantage: forbid unblocking absent explicit, strong, and unambiguous community consensus to do so. —Cryptic 00:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  I would support a proposal with that language. Heck, I'd write it myself, but I'm not sure how it should be phrased. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  "The reason no administrator has been willing to block or even explicitly warn yet is because we don't want to deal with the inevitable 'you only blocked me because you're an ignorant American' invective and the just-as-inevitable support from his enablers."

I'm sorry, but this doesn't go a long way to explaining this strange situation to me. If blocked for such obvious violations of core policies, and a user did launch into such a diatribe, it would very certainly be rejected if part of an unblock request, and would probably ultimately end in talk page access lost for the duration of the block, if pursued for too long. As for the "just-as-inevitable support from his enablers", I see exactly one person opposing the block here (out of dozens otherwise supporting either this particular solution or some sort of action), which is a virtually unheard of ratio of support in a discussion at ANI proposing a sanction for a longterm contributor. I think the community's patience being exhausted is about as uniform in this case as it ever comes.

And if a single admin (let alone every single one who has surely seen this discussion) were to avoid taking action on such brightline violations (and clear community consensus on same) just because of the possible blow back from supporters of a justifiably blocked party, that would be a pretty screaming indictment of whether they are keeping faith with the reason they were invested with the tools in the first place. Possibly I can see a few admins basing their choices on such criteria, but it just doesn't do to satisfactorily explain the overall inaction here, which remains perplexing to me in light of community consensus.

" Something that might be actually meaningful would be to remove the second-mover advantage: forbid unblocking absent explicit, strong, and unambiguous community consensus to do so."

Ok....but that would still require a block first, which is the thing that isn't happening in the first instance, and which you have just told us not to expect. Basically you're saying "We're not going to block this user, but hypothetically, if we did, we should be really serious about it." If the original proposal you are criticizing is "toothless" (and honestly, that's probably a fair critique), then this is like giving that toothless mouth a set of dentures made out of jelly gummies: not really solving the underlying issue.

Or is the entirety of your commentary above trying to hint at the possibility that there are admins who have historically backed HiLo in these situations? That's really the only thing that I can think of that explains your response and your proposed solution: i.e. no one wants to block and get reversed (or worse, into a wheel war), but if that possibility were no longer likely, they might be willing to? Is that a historical element of this user's conduct and why it hasn't been addressed sooner? If so, I haven't seen any indication of it looking through their block log and history here at ANI. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 09:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Not so much HiLo48 in particular (though I see elements of it in the February 2013 unblock discussion, which of course was a long time ago), but there's a long, long, history of civility blocks of long-term editors being quickly unilaterally reversed, and so then needing a positive consensus to reinstate - which at that point is unlikely. A block based on a community sanction like the originally-proposed one here would discourage unblocking, yes; but it was also objectionable in that it capped the block length and removed the usual tool of escalating blocks. At that point it was less of a sanction, more of a get-out-of-jail-free card. —Cryptic 23:14, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, perhaps symbolically at this point. But it seems administrators already possess the capacity to do this to any editor found in breach of civility policy. This comes across as "well, we have to do something". Zaathras (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support per Lepricavark. — Moe Epsilon 18:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support with Cryptic's addition, mostly per Snow Rise. Civility restrictions are often unsuccessful (cf. the current ArbCom case) but it's worth trying. This seems like the only reasonable alternative to an indefinite block, which I doubt is a preferred outcome for anyone who's commented here. — SamX [talk · contribs] 03:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  There are a lot of alternatives; it’s not that polarized. I would also support Cryptic addition if I could see the actual wording. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  @QEDK I'm pretty sure the addition needs to be "only appealable to community consensus". Aaron Liu (talk) 14:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Aaron Liu: Blocking admins should always be eligible to unblock until and unless the block itself was community-imposed, otherwise it causes a quite weird scenario where an accidental block needs community approval to rescind (for e.g. take the latest Paul August block), which is just not how it's supposed to work. --qedk (t 愛 c) 16:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  Huh, guess I support v2 then. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  I also support V2. When I had first !voted, I failed to see that HiLo has been in and out of AN/I for pretty much identical behavior for over a decade, and was much more inclined to support a very soft sanction as a result since I was under the wrong impression that they're still learning or that they'll outgrow their edginess. I apologize for infantilizing them like that. They've been here since '06, they've been "learning" about WP:CIVIL since I first learned how to do arithmetic as a child. This has gone on for an unreasonably long time. They're not going to change unless the proposal has some teeth.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 13:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support V2 based on what I’ve witnessed of HiLo’s conduct at WP:ITN, as well as his behavior below. The Kip (talk) 03:10, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Support V2 because yes, doing something is better than symbolically protest-voting in HiLo’s favor (oppose automatically equals acquittal, remember that) because the current sanctions aren’t good enough. Dronebogus (talk) 15:03, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Comments

• That post is written is loaded, biased, uncivil, tabloid language, and is a perfect example of the appalling nature of this place. I haven't REFUSED to comment here. I have simply chosen not to. There is a huge difference. HiLo48 (talk) 22:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  What is the difference, in your opinion? --JBL (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  It seems fairly obvious to me that "refused" is far less civil than "chose not to". HiLo48 (talk) 23:40, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  I would prefer not to. [26] EEng 01:11, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  It's not obvious to me -- see GabberFlasted's comment below, which accords with my experience. --JBL (talk) 23:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think - and I am open to correction here - that I can translate. By using "refused to make a comment" rather than "chose not to" or "declined to", qedk chose a shade of meaning that HiLo regards as "loaded, biased, uncivil, tabloid language". He is quite correct that there is a distinction, though I would not label it as huge.

  By extension, if a Wikipedia editor is using uncivil language here in proposing a civility restriction, then HiLo is exposing the hypocrisy inherent in the system.

  Perhaps we can find an acceptable medium if QEDK were to reframe his comment using the term HiLo proposed and then we can proceed with the core issue which HiLo has, as yet, chosen not to directly acknowledge? --Pete (talk) 00:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  While the terms are subtly different in how they are used (to refuse is to firmly reject or show unwillingness, and to decline is to politely reject or show unwillingness), I feel this is such a small semantic difference that it is a distraction to focus too much on it. Considering the anger with which HiLo phrased their comment above, it's not unfair to say "refused" is probably the more semantically correct term in this instance and I don't feel that QEDK using that term amounts to incivility, certainly not compared to the incivility we're here to discuss. But that's neither here nor there; this is an inconsequential side conversation.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 04:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that refused is probably a more accurate term, given that it implies some degree of consideration rather than, "I don't feel like it" or "I haven't gotten around to it yet" but I don't think it's a matter of pointless arguing over distractions so much as HiLo struggling to make himself clear in what he feels - with some justification - is a hostile forum.

  God knows that I've butted heads with him countless times and owe him no love beyond that due to any other being but if he has seen fit to make a belated comment it is worth trying to hear what he's trying to say. I think it is a mistake to assume that he is just giving everyone the ups for the pleasure of it.

  But that's probably by the by. Regardless of whether he acknowledges a failing or not, it exists and judging by the comments below, is clear to all. --Pete (talk) 05:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Truth be told, I actually thought they were referring to the entire thread, which could make sense given that most editors opining were opposed to their behaviour. I am still not fully clear what they were referring to as loaded and biased - but assuming they were referring to my proposal, I atleast have to disagree on the semantics alone, refused is no more uncivil than chose not to, in both cases, you have to be aware of the discussion and make a decision not to opine, maybe they're mistaking refusals as something explicitly stated but that's not how it works, if I refuse to pay my taxes, I'm not announcing to the IRS that I'm not paying it, I'm just not paying it, and "refusing" and "choosing not to" would carry the same weight in that regard. Similarly here, even if the fact is that they chose not to, it carries the same weight as an outright refusal. That said, I really don't want to get into semantics here, the question is about their conduct, it's quite tu quoque to simply drag semantics in here for no reason and I have no desire to derail the discussion. --qedk (t 愛 c) 13:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for refactoring the discussion. I'll say no more on this point here. --Pete (talk) 15:52, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Honestly, not only is the semantic argument over that little piece of phraseology largely irrelevant, I think HiLo's participation (or relative lack thereof) is largely irrelevant. At no time in the numerous attempts at community intervention has HiLo ever indicated an intention to accept, or even try to hear, community feedback--not that I have seen anyway. In fact, their user page has been constructed as a monument to their affirmative declaration of intent to ignore all such attempts. From the evidence present there and here, I don't think we can expect that there was ever any real chance of HiLo being won over by a well-worded, thoughtful, and novel description of our behavioural policies and the reasons behind them. HiLo simply doesn't believe in them and clearly will not change course short of community action to restrain them.

  At the same time, there is also clear community will that the problematic behaviour cannot be left to slide once again. So I don't think HiLo robbed us or themselves of anything by keeping their head down--and tactically I can understand why it felt to them like their best option, since they cannot countenance the idea of actually restraining their approach consistent with our policies and knew they would only be saying essentially as much to us here, which certainly would not have gone over any better than just staying silent. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:25, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Even if you have chosen not to comment, it is the opinion of multiple editors that you have repeatedly been WP:UNCIVIL, what do you have to say about their opinions specifically. --qedk (t 愛 c) 07:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  @HiLo48: Oxford defines refuse in this context as "indicate or show that one is not willing to do something". Merriam Webster presents a nearly identical definition, as does Cambridge. By your extensive contributions elsewhere concurrent this discussion, without participation here despite a proper ANI alert on your talk page, you have publicly indicate[d] or show[n] that you will not participate here. Therefore, you have refused to comment. GabberFlasted (talk) 14:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

  On that note, I find it mildly amusing that someone accused of making comments using language that is dismissive of other editors only comment on that thread is to complain about the specific language used to describe their own (lack of) behavior at this thread... Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 03:28, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Steven Walling

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This admin made accusations of bad faith and when called on it here and here, doubled and tripled and quadrupled down, finally refusing to discuss further. Just completely doesn’t see that commenting on another editor’s motivations is not okay.

This is not just an admin but a former WMF staffer, and I just think someone with this level of experience and influence should be recognizing they need to AGF and be willing to do some self reflection when someone calls them on their behavior. I’m also concerned that they really just don’t see what they said as an accusation of bad faith. Valereee (talk) 12:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The fifth and sixth diffs are the same ("tripled and quadrupled").—Alalch E. 13:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Was about to comment that. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 13:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

DOH. Thanks, if I've just screwed it up worse, LMK! Valereee (talk) 13:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Arbcom-levels of good faith, to be exact  :) SN54129 13:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Valeree, you are fundamentally confusing "assume good faith" with "don't ever say anything about someone's intentions and actions". The very first line of the policy is "Assuming good faith (AGF) means assuming that people are not deliberately trying to hurt Wikipedia". I have said that the proposal BilledMammal is making is against policy and that they have a pattern of trying to delete stubs. It is not an assumption of bad faith to say that someone wants to delete articles, and others in the discussion also commented that there is such a pattern. Many people, including myself given that I've nominated things for CSD and AFD, think that deleting articles can protect and improve Wikipedia when done so in accordance with content policy. I even directly said in the thread "I am sure they think they are trying to improve Wikipedia". You are not understanding my point at all. Steven Walling • talk 15:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

You literally said, BilledMammal is doing this because they know that mass AFDs would never pass, but they can pretend each draft will get considered before being eventually deleted. [Emphasis yours.] You accused them of pretending something false was true in order to achieve their own hidden goals. That is ABF. Valereee (talk) 16:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @BilledMammal since I've now mentioned them. Valereee (talk) 16:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

You insinuated in the diff labeled "doubled" above that there was obvious evidence that BilledMammal was not acting in good faith. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I am going to be slow to respond the rest of today because I am at work (not at WMF, where I haven't worked for almost a decade) but suffice it to say I do not agree. Accusing someone of trying to delete articles is not like saying they are a sockpuppet or a vandal trying to harm Wikipedia. Steven Walling • talk 16:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Take your time. Valereee (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

When someone asked you to strike your statement, you quoted a line from AGF that said that you don't have to assume good faith if there's obvious evidence they're acting in bad faith. Why did you quote this specific line? What relevance does this line have to BilledMammal? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:12, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

To add to the question above, do you have a diff where BilledMammal makes it obvious this is their intent? --ARoseWolf 18:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

As tempting as it is to reply with more, I'm going to resist the temptation to beat a dead horse. Steven Walling • talk 20:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

So only a few hours ago, it was that a response may be slow in coming due to work priorities, but now you're ducking out entirely? Seems like a willful WP:ADMINACCT violation. ValarianB (talk) 20:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Huh? I came back and replied when I had a break. In terms of an overall reply, please see what I said below. Steven Walling • talk 20:22, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I think Steven's level of responsiveness is more than adequate: the discussion only just opened, his claim that he is working is entirely feasible, and I see no evidence that he is trying to frustrate or delay community oversight or feedback. Indeed, given the borderline nature of the ABF comments this report is based upon, I would say that his concession below that "if folks don't like the tone I appreciate the feedback and will take that under sincere consideration in future discussions." is about as good as we can expect in the circumstances, and we should probably close this before hyper-analysis leads to an erosion of what limited agreement which has been reached here. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, I think Steven's comments are substantially correct. I would say that:

1. BilledMammal is acting in good faith and trying to improve the encyclopedia.
2. I would tentatively agree with his tactical choice of going the mass-draftification route rather than individual AfDs, and I think it is probably a better way of determining the consensus of the whole community in this case, even if it's not the way we normally do things.
3. Most people in the mass-draftification discussion are pretending to some extent, whether they're arguing that the drafts will be carefully scrutinized (they won't be) or whether they would be improved if we just let them aestivate in mainspace for a decade (they won't be).
4. I don't think statements like the above assume bad faith to such a degree that we need to tone-police them when they don't occur in a broader context of problematic behavior. Choess (talk) 16:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

It's actually fine to believe someone is pretending something. What it's not okay to do is accuse them of pretending something false is true in order to achieve their own goals, and then when the not-okayness of that is pointed out, to double down repeatedly, not provide any diffs supporting the accusation, and refuse to continue to discuss. We're here because SW refused, multiple times, a simple request to strike a sentence. Valereee (talk) 16:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

(Well, to be fair, we're also here because you decided it was important enough to start an ANI thread about it. It isn't like SW forced you to do this.) I think Choess has pretty wisely and succinctly summarized the situation, including the opinion that - while imperfect - SW's comment in isolation doesn't rise to the level of reviewing it here. Something can be bad without being ANI-worthy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Floq, fair enough: if it hadn't been an admin doubling down multiple times on ABF over a request to strike a sentence, we wouldn't be here. To be clear: my greater concern is that an admin thinks this is not just okay but absolutely okay and does not even see the problem. I tried multiple times to handle it at the discussion, and they called an end to the discussion. Valereee (talk) 17:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Whilst I don't agree with Steven (I'm pretty sure somewhere in this clusterfuck of a discussion I opined in favour of draftification) I don't think it rises to that level either. Black Kite (talk) 17:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

This is an admin who doesn't see that accusing someone without evidence of bad faith is a problem. It wouldn't be at ANI if I could still be discussing it there. Valereee (talk) 17:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Of course SW's comments aren't made in isolation; it's not like WP:LUGSTUBS2 was the first time. In WP:LUGSTUBS, in his second comment, Steven accused BM of "bad faith." Before that, in WP:FR2022RFC, he said BM "wants to start a holy war." Those are just the ones I remember, I don't know if there are others. Steven's comments are ad hominem; instead of discussing the RFC proposal, he attacks the RFC proposer. I think we can all agree that Steven's comments are not cool. Steven needs to hear that from everyone, so that he knows to adjust his behavior. So, everybody say it with me now:

Not cool.

If, instead of telling Steven "not cool," we tell Val not to bring this to ANI, Steven will continue making comments like this, and nobody will take it to ANI. The strategy of "say nothing until it becomes sanctionable" is a really poor strategy. So, say something, say it now, say it to the person who is doing something that we don't want them to do, and then the problem might be solved and it might never rise to sanctionable behavior. Win-win. Levivich (talk) 17:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Not cool. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Levivich, and I appreciate Valereee's efforts to address the issue. When other editors see discussions in which remarks like Steven Walling's are made and nobody pushing back, they learn that approach is condoned and feel emboldened to behave likewise. Schazjmd (talk) 17:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The diffs of Steven's comments are here: [27] [28]. I am not sure that they support the explicit and implicit construction Levivich has put on them, but I obviously don't see eye to eye with others here, so editors can make up there own minds. Choess (talk) 18:22, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Why was this wording needed at all? "Every year some group of editors wants to start a holy war over the wording or style of the banners."(emphasis mine) Steven couldn't get his point across without this degree of ABF? I think Levivich is spot on in that, at the very least, SW has displayed extremely poor judgement in the wording he has used. We've all been there. The answer is not to double down on your approach when faced with it. The fact is he assumed bad faith. He said that he did. He just claimed a Wikipeida policy gave him the okay to do so but hasn't provided a single diff that expressly shows BilledMammal obviously intended bad faith. His BF position is one you even disagree with in your initial comment above (#1). If BilledMammal did not obviously intend bad faith then SW has no policy which to stand upon in order to not assume the good faith of a fellow editor. Whether or not anything actionable occurred, I do believe a strong reminder that we don't do this and that SW needs to take a little more time to choose their words wisely is in order. I think that was Levivich's attempt above. Also, Not cool. --ARoseWolf 18:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf, I would love it if you'd look at my comment below and tell me whether you believe that using language like "holy war" means "I believe that person is intentionally trying to hurt Wikipedia" (which is my understanding of what "assuming bad faith" means – see the first sentence of Wikipedia:Assume good faith, and maybe the article Bad faith as well). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:20, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, I'm not sure what your point was of trying to correlate the two statements above but I wasn't trying to say that Steven's use of "holy war" somehow meant he believes those that undertake such actions are intentionally trying to harm Wikipedia. My point is that it's a poor choice of words and continued use of such phrases may be considered aspersions cast upon others. Wikipedia is not a battleground and we shouldn't treat it as such nor should we use connotations of wars, actions taken during wars or the results of any wars to describe actions or events taken on this project. I revert vandalism all the time on this project. Yet the vandal is not my enemy and I am not at war with vandals. We revert and if it is repeated past the prescribed number of warnings or if it is egregious enough after only one or two attempts then they are reported to AIV and subsequently blocked by an admin. This is not a battle and we are not at war with anyone, let alone good faith editors that are a part of this community. We shouldn't be referring to their attempts, according to their own beliefs, to improve upon the encyclopedia as a "holy war". I think Steven should take more time to choose his words carefully. We've all been there before so I'm not speaking from a position of moral superiority. I believe a simple warning to not continue such behavior and to take on the criticism and advice given by the community in this discussion is the only logical result here. As pointed out below, a bit of a tempest in a teacup but I'd rather address it at this stage than wait for it to become something more so I'm glad Valereee brought it up. I hadn't even brought up the potential claim of gaming as pointed out by Snow Rise. I do believe this is another contradiction within Steven's reasoning that he will need to reconcile. --ARoseWolf 13:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I believe that some editors perceive the ongoing struggle between m:inclusionists and m:deletionists to be something like a "war". I think that subject (also m:immediatists vs m:eventualists) hasn't been discussed openly in the community much in the last couple of years (e.g., since you created your account), but I think that is the fundamental source of the effort to move "inadequate" articles out of the mainspace, as well as the fundamental source of the opposition to it. Conflicts between editors over their values, and over whose values will prevail, are not really wars, but there might be some perception of "enemies". The Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron, that bastion of inclusionism (more military metaphors...), conjures up a visceral animosity in some editors that can't be fairly described as an example of tolerance for editors of the opposing viewpoints (nor can the ten different attempts to delete the WikiProject's page, some of which use language like "hostile" and enemies of the project" and "armed camp").

I can even understand the conflict as having some religious-like aura, since it is ultimately a matter of personal values.

All of which is to say: Many editors might not feel like there is a war for Wikipedia's soul happening, but that doesn't mean that all editors feel that way. I don't love this language myself, but I do think we need to hear the criticism. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:52, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Decidedly not cool. The definition of "bad faith" is NOT "making edits/taking stances of which I disapprove." Ravenswing 18:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

As you might guess, I feel very strongly about the possibility of deleting or draftifying a mass number of Wikipedia articles. Removing hundreds or thousands of articles at once is a very serious thing given how sweeping a precedent it creates. That said, if folks don't like the tone I appreciate the feedback and will take that under sincere consideration in future discussions. Steven Walling • talk 19:58, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

• Not cool. Levivich is right - as hominem comments in discussions of that nature are really unhelpful, and unbecoming of an admin. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
• "Not cool" warning (and we might consider making this a regular piece of ANI diction: feels like it fills a role). I think various community members have already very capably summarized the relevant factors of this dispute above: yes the immediate conduct in question is an example of ABF, despite Steven's protestations to the contrary; no, I can't imagine that I (or most community members) would have escalated response to this exchange to an ANI filing--these are pretty tepid examples of tonal issues, all things considered; on the other hand, we are (understandably) inclined to hold admins to a particular standard for deescalatory (rather than needlessly accusatory) approaches to such such situations, and examples have been supplied here to suggest that the choice to do the opposite may be a little bit of a pattern for Steven (hard emphasis on 'may' there, given the amount of evidence supplied).

I also think Choess' summary is particularly apt: I don't think that the process that BM chose to employ here is all that disruptive or that it is likely to convey an unfair advantage or process-dodging result. If anything, discussions taking place at the pump are likely to get broader scrutiny. That may result in less eyes on the particulars of this or that article, but probably results in substantially similar (or even more) oversight and feedback on the whole. Regardless, it's clearly taking place under numerous community eyes, the presumable majority of whom are actually approaching the issues fresh and with less built-in bias. I have noticed that BilledMammal does tend to be a little WP:BOLD in policy spaces of late, and does approach some procedural and policy issues in a rather idiosyncratic fashion. But this instance does not strike me as particularly problematic, and I certainly don't think there is cause for assuming the chosen approach to be an intentional effort to subvert community expectations. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I have noticed that BilledMammal does tend to be a little WP:BOLD in policy spaces of late, and does approach some procedural and policy issues in a rather idiosyncratic fashion. Thank you for bringing that up; I'll keep it in mind, and try to tone back the boldness. BilledMammal (talk) 05:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Valereee, I do wish sometimes that we all had a clearer understanding of what certain words mean. So, for the sake of clarity, here are the definitions I'm using, and I'd be curious how that differs from the definitions you're using:

• good faith: Someone may have destroyed the whole wiki, but they were trying to help Wikipedia. Compare: "Toddler tries to help wash the dishes but accidentally breaks some" and "Friend tries to sympathize but actually says something really stupid and hurtful".
• bad faith: Someone is intentionally trying to hurt Wikipedia. See also: Wikipedia:Vandalism. Note that, just like people who try to help can accidentally hurt Wikipedia, people who try to hurt Wikipedia might accidentally improve it (e.g., by blanking text that was confusing, redundant, or inappropriate).

What isn't bad faith, according to my definition: Trying to (according to your own best judgment, which might differ from mine) help Wikipedia by choosing the process that is most likely to accomplish your goal of improving Wikipedia. For example: Trying your best to get rid of thousands of very short, poorly sourced articles, because you genuinely believe that getting rid of these articles would improve Wikipedia. Reasonable people can (and do) disagree about whether that would actually improve Wikipedia (e.g., according to their own judgement or according the judgment of some hypothetical outside observer), but if you believe it would be an improvement, then it's not bad faith for you to pursue that goal.

What isn't assuming bad faith, according to my definition: Saying out loud that someone else has a goal that seems helpful to them but not to you (e.g., getting rid of thousands of very short, poorly sourced articles) that realistically can't be accomplished through the standard process (e.g., AFD) but might be possible through an alternative process (e.g., repeated RFCs proposing draftification of "just" hundreds of articles each), and that they are pursuing their improvement efforts through the process that seems to have a chance of working.

In other words, this isn't a case of "ABF" – according to my definition. I grant that it might make supporters unhappy to have someone pointing out that draftifying-to-inevitable-deletion is a rather unusual use of RFCs, and it might make supporters fear awkward questions like exactly how many more of these RFCs are expected, affecting how many articles? (Based on my previous conversations with the OP, I'd guess about one RFC per sport and a few tens of thousands of articles.) It might even make supporters believe that some other editors think that that removing these articles is actually harming Wikipedia instead of helping it. But nowhere in there does anyone say that anyone thinks BilledMammal is trying to harm Wikipedia, and therefore this is not a case of "ABF" at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree, but I will say that the way Steve framed those comments as a whole, there is at least an implication of misuse of process / gaming the system. Or at least, I think that's a very reasonable read. Either way, I really feel that the comments in question straddle the line between legitimate interpretation of another user's conduct and something that could be reasonably interpreted as a refusal to AGF. That said, for me personally, given the ambiguities here, I feel like Steve has made a reasonable level of concession, saying he will take the input on board. Kinda feels like the most we are going to get here, anyway. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 03:06, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

To be clear: yes, I think the proposal is gaming the system by circumventing deletion policy and our normal processes. I directly said that in my original comment on the survey. Deletion policy on moving articles to draft space is super clear on this and says "Older articles—as a rule of thumb those older than 90 days—should not be draftified without prior consensus at AfD". BilledMammal and other editors are directly trying to edit the policy to allow for using "other venues" than AFD, which there is no consensus for, at least yet. Pushing for edits to policy pages at the same time you're making a proposal that is in contradiction to the current policy is a huge red flag to me. As WhatamIdoing says, I have absolutely no doubt these editors truly believe they are trying to make Wikipedia better in this attempt (i.e. acting in good faith), but it is an inappropriate way of going about it, which is why I have commented repeatedly on the effort. Steven Walling • talk 05:26, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Pushing for edits to policy pages at the same time you're making a proposal that is in contradiction to the current policy is a huge red flag to me. You missed some context here; the change to WP:ATD-I was originally done on the 22nd of May, per WP:LUGSTUBS and on the basis that policy is descriptive, not prescriptive. Joe Roe than modified it on the 9th of June. It was in place in that form, without objection, for over a month before the current proposal started.

Only after the current proposal was opened did BeanieFan11 object, prompting the current discussion. To characterize this as a "red flag" is a rather uncharitable interpretation of the history of that discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 05:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your candor with regard to all of this, Steven. That said, if that was your intention, I do need to pull back my support (at least partially) for the notion that this was a grey area and maybe an acceptable comment. Because while your rhetoric in this instance may technically align with the letter of the definition of AGF (which afterall does begin with "Assuming good faith (AGF) means assuming that people are not deliberately trying to hurt Wikipedia, even when their actions are harmful.") it is still problematic in a number of ways. Because if you are accusing BM of WP:GAMING, that is an issue. If you're going to take shelter in the literal wording of WP:AGF, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander: WP:GAMING (also a behavioural guideline) begins with "Gaming the system means deliberately using Wikipedia policies in bad faith to thwart the aims of Wikipedia.". And if you are accusing another user of doing that without strong evidence, you are clearly casting WP:ASPERSIONS, which to my mind is actually a more serious issue than just a failure to AGF.

And further, even if you wanted us to read the definition of "assume good faith" literally according to the policy, but read the definition of "gaming the system" more idiomatically (which would be a very convenient approach for your position), it's still not a good fit to the circumstances, because nothing BilledMammal did here can really be considered "gaming the system" in even that looser sense, imo. They made a novel proposal in light of novel circumstances (and to meet a pressing need for the encyclopedia). They not only did it in full view of the community, they actually did it on probably the most visible single page on the entire project. The community is free to endorse or reject that proposal (and right now, with significant participation, the majority are leaning towards support and were at the time you made your observation).

A now banned user abused process to add nearly a hundred thousand articles to the project that did not meet its sourcing standards. There has been voluminous discussion about what to do about the resulting content. BM made a proposal to move just a couple thousand of those (that meet very strict criteria) to draft space until those that could were brought into compliance with our content policies. That's an eminently reasonable proposal. Community members and reasonable minds may (and clearly do) vary in whether they consider it the right way forward here, but again, this was a proposal to the community at large that we adopt a certain method for processing mass-created content made in abrogation of our policies. The mere act of volunteering the proposal itself to the community (again, in the most visible and open manner possible on this project) can in no reasonable way be considered "gaming the system", and if that's what you meant by your comments--yeah, it's problem and you need to recalibrate your impressions, imo.

Or at the very least avoid vocalizing them in this respect, because whatever the value or lack thereof of the proposal, there was nothing improper in how BilledMammal approached seeking consensus on the matter. I know you didn't ask for it, but if you want my honest opinion, being now in possession of more insight into your thought process here, you need to be more cognizant of the possible chilling effects of accusing someone of abusing process by merely making a proposal, especially when that accusation comes from an administrator.

I still don't think there's more to be done here than to ask you to bear all of this in mind going forward, but I would ask you to give the feedback very serious consideration. You are in a position of authority here and your descriptions of the conduct of other users have weight and potential consequences. If you want to cleave to a textualist reading of policy in your own defense, you should be giving other community members the same courtesy and not making willy-nilly descriptions of their conduct that involve terminology that also serves as a label for policy violations on this project. Afterall WP:AGF also tells you to avoid speculating about the motives of other editors without proof for exactly this reason. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 11:54, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing, it's hard to see how dishonesty to further one's own personal motives is not straightforward bad faith in basically any situation I can immediately come up with. But definitely let the toddler wash the dishes, as (parenting hack) I discovered that if you let toddlers do all the things they think look like fun when they first start thinking that, by the time your kids are five they've internalized that it's their job to do the laundry, vacuuming, and dishes and have learned to do those things competently. Valereee (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

What seems actually dishonest to you, in any of the comments by anyone? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC

WhatamIdoing, I was responding to your assertion that In other words, this isn't a case of "ABF" – according to my definition. If you're calling someone dishonest, IMO you're saying they're operating in bad faith. I don't think saying they're being dishonest but for reasons-they-consider-good makes it okay. Valereee (talk) 18:57, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Dishonesty does not always happen in bad faith, not even according to Immanuel Kant, who advocated for stricter adherence to honesty than any philosopher I've ever encountered, but my question is: Where did Steven use the word dishonest?

Note that pretending is not really the same thing as dishonesty. Children pretend things – an imaginary friend, what it might be like to be the parent, I am a kitten now – and it is the furthest thing from dishonesty.

I think it is an overreaction to interpret a statement that an editor is "pretending" that editors will be more likely to fix long-neglected articles in the much-neglected Draft: space faster than they would if they were left in the mainspace as "he is deliberately lying to you". Anyone familiar with the dynamics in the two namespaces, as well as anyone who has read the research (research that was clear enough about its problems that it probably should have resulted in the removal of the Draft space entirely, and sent editors back to working in their User: space instead), should be aware that while these articles have a very low chance of improvement in the mainspace, they have an even lower chance of improvement in the Draft: space. We might downplay that to get the outcome we prefer – we might tell ourselves a story to ourselves in which something will be different this time – but Steven is remind us that this is just a story: The imaginary friend does not eat the cookie; I do. The child's idea of what it's like to be a parent is incomplete and inaccurate. You are not a kitten now. And thousands of articles written by a now-banned editor on a subject that hasn't interested either any individual editors or groups for years now will not be improved just because they're dumped in the draft space.

And this, too, is worth noticing: Nobody accuses the other of trying to make Wikipedia worse. The only "accusation" is that the proposed method of improvement will be ineffective. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you Valereee for opening this, and thank you Levivich for providing those other examples; I had in fact forgotten about those, which is part of the problem in that such accusations of bad faith or other examples of incivility have become so commonplace they are no longer memorable. To be clear, I'm not referring to just Steven Walling here, but any step to remind editors that assuming good faith, and civility more broadly, is required is a positive.

My problem with the statement under discussion here, BilledMammal is doing this because they know that mass AFDs would never pass, but they can pretend each draft will get considered before being eventually deleted, is that I am accused of dishonest motives, of lying about my intent. Steven Walling is free to believe this, but saying it isn't helpful, and is against policy. Personally, I am hoping that Steven will concede they shouldn't have said that and strike the comment; while offering to take other editors concerns under sincere consideration in future discussions is a positive step, it isn't the same thing as agreeing that it was "not cool", nor is it the same as removing the problematic sentence. BilledMammal (talk) 05:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

In response to WhatamIdoing, and without presuming to speak for Valereee, I'll say this about good/bad faith. You are right that the first sentence of WP:AGF defines good faith strictly in terms of what benefits the encyclopedia. I think that if we broaden that out slightly however, a more everyday, commonplace meaning of the phrase would encompass assuming that people are being honest. Implying that people are lying (or 'pretending' something they know not to be true) would in most circumstances be understood as an accusation of bad faith. Even if it isn't strictly covered by the wording of AGF, I don't think that it is permissible under WP:CIV. We encourage editors to focus on content, not contributors; in a discussion like that one, which is about policy rather than content, we should obviously be focusing on the policy, not the motivations or mental state of a contributor who has proposed a change to policy. It's fine to say 'the results of this wouldn't be X, it would be Y and Z, which would be bad so I oppose'. It's not cool to say 'Example editor is pretending they believe that X would happen, so they can push through Y and Z through the back door.' As admins, we should be doing our utmost to model civility and restraint in discussions, and we should be open to criticism when we lapse. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

BilledMammal: If simply striking the comment is really the show of good intentions that would make you feel more comfortable, I'll do that now. Steven Walling • talk 16:04, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, that is all I was looking for. I'm satisifed. Valereee (talk) 16:05, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. BilledMammal (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

BilledMammal I think that was a very reasonable request. I agree with you, contra WAID, that "deceptive" does carry negative connotations (albeit mild ones), and while I don't think it was wise of Valereee to take up a cudgel over something you saw fit to ignore at the time, I think you're well within your rights to ask for it to be stricken. (If you, rather than Valereee, had initially requested the comment be stricken and been refused, I would have considered that a much more serious affair.) Choess (talk) 03:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Choess: I did actually make the initial ask for it to be striken; I wasn't going to take it further because such comments directed at me are quite common and I can't be opening a new ANI thread every few days, but I'm glad Valereee did. BilledMammal (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Choess, read the diffs again. My first comment in that interaction was simply to agree with BilledMammal after they objected to the comment. But I'm not sure why even if I'd been the first making the remark that would make it less serious for you? As I see it part of an admin's job is to protect other editors. Valereee (talk) 08:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Every year some group of editors wants to start a holy war over the wording or style of the banners - a look at that fundraising discussion and this is the egregious breach of AGF? In general, Steven's comments come off a bit flip, but nowhere near something that should rise to the level of ANI. As if there aren't some people who, based on what they've actually said on-wiki, would absolutely like to sabotage the WMF's fundraising by challenging the banners every year (in addition, of course, to a larger number of people with more nuanced perspectives and criticisms of the banners). Is that even directed at anyone in particular? Also, it would be clear to anyone active in deletion policy/guideline-related discussions that one of BM's primary activities is to test the limits of those PAGs and of deletion processes to make it easier to delete things, easier to remove stubs, and harder to create/keep low quality content. I would be surprised if they disputed this, even, as it's not at all incompatible with good faith. I don't agree with a lot of it, and I have some wiki-old-timer worries about the strategic use of "case law" to steer policy where a proposal to simply change the policy would fail and what all of it means for the future of newbie participation in particular, but that's just a matter of differing perspectives/wikiphilosophies. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:12, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I do tend to still feel that this is a bit of a tempest in a teapot, which may seem strange to say, given the rapid amount of discussion it has blossomed in a day and my own contribution to that volume with my wall of text above. But I think it's largely because of Steven's status as an admin: it's the only rational explanation I can think of, when unambiguous behavioural issues sometimes sit in broad daylight on ANI for weeks with much less uniform criticism. And to be fair, the admin factor is a reasonable cause for community members to express inordinate concern.

Even so, and as I said in my initial post here, I couldn't personally see bringing this issue to ANI, ever. But brought it was, and I think it is (hopefully soon to be "was") a useful conversation to have. If nothing else, it was necessary to at least discuss the issues in a manner that allowed Steven to present his side of the exchange, lest he be left with a compromised reputation in the eyes of any editors without the benefit of replying. But even if it's clear that there is no basis for a sanction or community restraint here, I think the discussion of the subtext and relevance of these policies is a good one to have when these accusations are made. It would be unfair to Steven to keep this discussion open for much longer, in my one opinion, for just the purpose of having that debate, but if he's an admin worthy of the mop, he will have already decided the discussion was worth having--at least, that's how I see it. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 13:33, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Snow Rise (and others), where would be a better place to have a discussion about an administrator who you believe has demonstrated behavior we would like not to see from an admin but who is repeatedly pushing back on whether the behavior is at all problematic when you bring it to their attention, and finally tells you they won't discuss it with you any more? Because I'm happy to take it to the proper forum next time I encounter that. Valereee (talk) 15:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Arbcom, and see if it rises to the level of stripping the rights, ala Scottywong. Zaathras (talk) 16:00, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I disagree that any behavior by an admin has to be so egregious that it's enough to get arbcom involved before we can bring it up somewhere else and try for community resolution. It looks like this has been resolved, so if anyone would like to suggest a better forum, you can take it to my user talk, and I sincerely would like to know: if not here, where? Valereee (talk) 16:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

No - arbcom is for cases we can't figure out with a community discussion. Valereee did not come here and say 'Steven won't accept that he's done something wrong, so we need to get his sysop bit taken off him', she came here and said 'Steven said this stuff that I think is unacceptable, and he won't take it back - what do others think?'. Lots of people have commented, Steven has agree to strike the comment that caused offense, and everyone who has read the thread has probably done a bit of thinking about what is and isn't acceptable in discussions about policy. I don't think Valereee was wrong to bring this here - like Levivich said way further up, this forum shouldn't be exclusively for cases where sanctions are unambiguously needed. We can nudge people in a better direction. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a behavioural issue, not one regarding the use of administrative privileges. Even in the case of problematic administrative actions, the community should be trying to resolve the issue using the usual dispute resolution path, as with any editor. isaacl (talk) 16:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

+1. If it had involved tools, I would have taken it to WP:XRV. Valereee (talk) 16:24, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Valereee, I appreciate that this might not be a satisfying answer for you, but in this instance I would not have taken it anywhere. ANI is the appropriate forum for behavioural discussions, but not every disagreement about conduct meets the threshold for justifying a discussion here; there is a space between suboptimal conduct and highly disruptive behaviour where it typically makes sense just to let go of these things. I hope my comments above made it clear that I don't think Steven's observations were fair game, and I certainly understand why you took issue with them. Furthermore, I think you did the right thing in broaching the topic with him. But once it was clear that you weren't going have a meeting of the minds about the comments in question, I don't think it necessarily needed to be escalated to ANI, or any further community response, on the basis of those particular statements.

Now do bear in mind how I phrased the observation in the first instance: I'm not going to go as far as to say you did the wrong thing by bringing the matter here (it's enough of a grey area that I don't feel comfortable doing that). I'm just saying I wouldn't have done so. But what's done is done and I do sincerely hope that Steven takes the feedback to heart, the conversation having been had. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 00:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll respond at my talk. Valereee (talk) 09:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

At this point, I doubt theres going to be any sanctions; I also doubt that editors believe this was acceptable. Might as well warn and close. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll echo this and especially Rhododendrites' comment about a tempest in a teapot. I've dealt with issues from BilledMammal in the past and been trying to work with Steven Walling on some behavior issues too, so I guess you can call that a wash in terms of involvement. Yup, I agree with Steven's sentiment that BilledMammal has been problematic in AFD space, so I do think think Steven has valid underlying concerns there. That said Valeree has a point with this ANI to at least head off the path Steven was heading down. As Snow Rise mentioned, I hope they take the feedback seriously to take a pause. WP:TROUT, caution, whatever, but no sanctions needed, especially if insight was gained. KoA (talk) 05:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't actually see the need for even a trout, myself. I think this can just be closed as resolved with no action needed. Valereee (talk) 12:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Frenchl

• Frenchl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Frenchl is repeatedly and persistently making disruptive edits to articles pertaining about football (soccer) players. They are obsessed with the issue of players' nationality, and have made many edits against the consensus of Wikipedia:WikiProject Football (WPF) despite repeated warnings and pleads to stop. Firstly, Frenchl has been adding "dashed nationality" or "double nationality" to player articles, which is something that is against the consensus of WPF. An example of their addition of a double nationality can be found here for Ilyes Housni, and an example of their addition of dashed nationality can be found here for Skelly Alvero. The consensus of WPF regarding situations of footballers having dual citizenship is clear; players born in a specific country and who end up representing that country should be labelled as such (e.g., Zinedine Zidane is French, even if he has Algerian citizenship/nationality). The other consensus of WPF is that in a complex scenario, in which for example a player was born in one country and later represented another at international level, the consensus is to omit the nationality from the opening sentence and explain it either in the next sentence, or further down in the lede. This is to avoid using hyphens and "double nationality" as I say, which WPF has consisently stood against. As stated by GiantSnowman in this discussion, We have a standard way of editing - if a player is born in country X but plays for country Y, we do not include the nationality in the lede (opening sentence). This confirms what I am iterating the consensus that has been used for past years within this WikiProject.
Frenchl is doing everything in their power to not listen to both of the consensuses, and is making WP:POINTY edits against past consensus on nationality. Examples are here on Dembo Sylla, here on Mouaad Madri, here on Hamza Hafidi, here on Steven Nsimba, and just in the past 24 hours, on the articles of Ilyes Housni, Antony Robic, Syam Ben Youssef, Yann Boé-Kane, Skelly Alvero, Aïman Maurer, and Kévin Mouanga. I have had to go back and remove every disruptive edit on the nationality of all of these player articles. Many complaints were made against Frenchl in this discussion, first by GiantSnowman, regarding Frenchl's POINTY editing patterns against consensus on nationality. They have been repeatedly warned, as in this discussion on their talk page. Iggy the Swan and GiantSnowman both warned Frenchl about their disruptive editing on player articles regarding the subject of nationality, and this was done repeatedly by GiantSnowman in three different comments. However, as I mentioned just above, despite repetitive warnings, Frenchl has continued to violate the consensus long established on WPF, and has persistently disrupted many player articles, including many in the past 24 hours. According to this discussion started by Koncorde on GiantSnowman's talk page, Frenchl has also been making POINTY edits regarding specific wording around "representing a federation" despite persistent demands to stop disruptively editing Wikipedia.
I believe that a block is in order now for Frenchl, due to their repeated disregard for community guidelines and consensus, and repetitive disruptive editing. I would like to add that per WP:BLOCKP, this block is preventative based on the high likelihood of repetition of disruptive editing, as seen in the past 24 hours despite several demands and warnings. Paul Vaurie (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

In 2019 a user has been banned by the community because "nationality isn't determined by who you play a sport for". And because "WP:RS,WP:OR and WP:BLP apply, regardless of what WP:FOOTY says." He was even told "You need to understand that nationality/citizenship is a legal status. It does not change merely because someone plays a sport for another country."

I think these rules should be reminded to WP:FOOTY members. As someone said yesterday, WPF consensus on nationality is "a stange rule - with no other profession does Wikipedia decide that we can obscure basic info because some of it kinda relates to their job". Frenchl (talk) 21:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm supporting a block for Frenchl, due to repeated violations against various discussions many established users have been involved in, including the two similar discussions on the WPF page whose text takes up at least half the page. By blocking, hopefully before the end of this month the two long discussions will have been archived by the bot but they keep on expanding partly due to further input by Frenchl. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I think we should encourage Frenchl to contribute to discussions more productively, since they are clearly willing to discuss edits. Before anyone suggests it, I don't say this because they have some similar views to mine, I say it because I think blocks should be a very last resort as a rule and there are better ways to deal with well-meaning editors - see my comments from the past few days in the above thread about HiLo, a user I almost always disagree with, for example. Kingsif (talk) 21:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your input, Kingsif, and I thank you for reminding the viewers that you and Frenchl have indeed been repeatedly backing each other up in a recent discussion about nationality. However, as you said, I am unsure if you are the best placed to oppose a block on Frenchl, as they are clearly making POINTY, disruptive edits repetitively despite warnings and pleads to stop. To @Frenchl:, we are not here to discuss WPF's consensus, but your bad behavior and disruptive editing, which you have not stopped. A block is appropriate, as Iggy and I see it. Paul Vaurie (talk) 21:47, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

This must be said. Paul, I have not been backing up Frenchl in the slightest; I have asked them to stop making off-topic comments, and made it clear that they are seeking a different resolution that I felt was unhelpful in the recent discussion. Please do not continue to mischaracterise my comments there or try to discount my comments here. Kingsif (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I agree with that. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

• From my superficial reading of the situation, I agree that Frenchl should stop making edits to footballers' nationalities until this matter (how to treat the subjects' nationalities) is resolved. Frenchl, if you believe the project's consensus goes against some other policy, you should bring this up to the community, possibly at VPP (though I think the linked thread from 2019 is related to a somewhat different issue). Editing articles in a way that contradicts what appears to be the current consensus is disruptive, especially as you are clearly aware that several editors disagree with you. I don't think sanctions are necessary right at this moment, as long as Frenchl stops with those edits. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 22:06, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Isabelle Belato: If the disruptive editing abruptly stops, then sanctions would not be necessary, but it would wise to analyze what Frenchl does over the next few days. However, I would be impressed; just in the past four-five days, Frenchl has made over 150 edits, of which over 75% were disruptive. I have spent the past 20 minutes reverting former disruptive edits that went unnoticed. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:26, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

For background, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Nationality in lede - there is clear consensus that Frenchl's edits regarding nationality are NOT supported by the community. They know their edits are against consensus, but they continued.

However, their edits beyond the 'nationality issue' are also disruptive, examples being removing 'national' from national teams and adding unsourced content to BLPs.

Their talk page is littered with established editors trying educate them, but the conduct has not stopped. WP:CIR is a serious concern here.

I therefore support an indefinite topic ban from all association football-related articles, broadly construed. GiantSnowman 06:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Frenchl: Being right is great but that won't stop you being blocked because collaboration is paramount. You need to either stop right now or get a clear consensus for your edits at the wikiproject talk. Please let me know if this continues. Johnuniq (talk) 08:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I already stopped. I will go to Village pump (policy) and we will see if global consensus can be overruled by a local consensus. As for artists of politicians, the WikiProject Basketball mentions all nationalities in the lede for dual nationals, there is no valid reason why this should not be the case for the WikiProject Football. Frenchl (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Echoing GS. CIR is of particular concern. User either is unable to write encyclopedically, or their POV is so overbearing that they are needlessly disruptive in trying to force their perspective. Even if their argument was one of nationality, changing the word "country" to "association", amending links from representative national teams to associations and so on can only be viewed as WP:POINTY attempt to force citizenship into the first sentence by making all other usage obscure, unclear, or purposely misleading for the average reader who would understand the association is the organiser of a representative national team associated with a country - uncontroversially referred to in all reliable sources as "representative country" / "national team" / "allegiance to" / "plays for" and words to that effect. There is no illusion that a French player plays for France as all current links will point directly to the national team of that representative association. The edits are therefore intentionally disruptive and not conducive to writing encyclopedically.

That their answer is to run to the Village Pump pretty much seals the deal that they have no intention of working to consensus and only threat of action has paused their disruption (not actually recognising why their edits are wrong, inappropriate and disruptive). Koncorde (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, respecting FIFA's wording is not WP:POINTY. And following Wikipedia's global rules is not disruptive. WP:CIR is an essay, not a policy, and saying I am incompetent is a personal attack. Frenchl (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

If you don't understand what we're saying and why what you are doing is against consensus and most probably incorrect for this WikiProject, then WP:CIR is valid here. Since you are trying to force an agenda, I am getting strong WP:NHTBAE vibes based on General pattern of disruptive behavior and Little or no interest in working collaboratively. I fully agree with Koncorde and GiantSnowman's comments. A topic ban would be appropriate too, if a block is not in order yet. Paul Vaurie (talk) 19:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I perfectly understood the WikiProject Football does not want to respect the global rules of Wikipedia. In 2014 a Request for Comment has been made and the result was that all nationalities should be referred in the opening sentence. It is inaccurate to say that this is a "long-established consensus" when in 2014 it was not. The closure was contested by Giantsnowman but confirmed on Administrator's noticeboard.

I asked him when WPF consensus on nationality changed, but got no response. Was there a new vote afterwards? Has the global community allowed WPF to have its own rules on nationality ? Frenchl (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of whether Frenchl's conduct is appropriate or not, WikiProjects may not enforce their "consensus" on articles, and editors have been topic banned for attempting to do so in the past. Per WP:PROJPAGE:

However, in a few cases, projects have wrongly used these pages as a means of asserting ownership over articles within their scope, such as insisting that all articles that interest the project must contain a criticism section or must not contain an infobox, or that a specific type of article can't be linked in navigation templates, and that other editors of the article get no say in this because of a "consensus" within the project. An advice page written by several participants of a project is a "local consensus" that is no more binding on editors than material written by any single individual editor. Any advice page that has not been formally approved by the community through the WP:PROPOSAL process has the actual status of an optional essay. Contents of WikiProject advice pages that contradict widespread consensus belong in the user namespace.

WikiProjects do not speak for the community, and any editors that repeatedly try to enforce a "WikiProject consensus" should be sanctioned for violating WP:OWNERSHIP. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Since this is more about the discussion topic than Frenchl's attitude (although it's definitely related), you may want to take it to the WT:FOOTY threads (Nationality in lede and Lucy Bronze) instead. Kingsif (talk) 22:21, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

It's also not relevant here. The local "consensus" is an explanation MOS:CONTEXTBIO in line with the overall project. That it comes up off an on is evidence that there is no WP:OWNERSHIP, and that there is a discussion of that policy reflects that refers to a local consensus is as a short-hand for "we have covered this topic before and this is what has been said". People are always free to bring it up again, so long as they're not purposely being obtuse. Koncorde (talk) 22:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Your comment would also be better at the actual discussions, I think. Of course, I would find that trying to disregard new well-meaning discussions only on the premise of the consensus existing is relevant. But let's keep the AN/I on-topic, too. Kingsif (talk) 22:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

It became relevant when editors started calling for someone to be topic banned specifically because they edited in a way that a WikiProject didn't like. Asking to sanction a user because they went against "WikiProject consensus" approaches WP:BOOMERANG territory. An editor doesn't have to "bring up" anything with a WikiProject, because WikiProjects don't have a say in editing practices. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:16, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

No, they edit in a way that is disruptive. GiantSnowman 16:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

And you sensibly argued this in your comment above. Some of the other editors in this discussion seem to believe that they can enforce a "WikiProject consensus" on other editors, which in my experience is far more harmful to a topic area than one editor's unwillingness to collaborate. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

You make a good point, I now think this is relevant to mention here. Yes, Frenchl edits disruptively on articles and talk pages, and that is what is being discussed. But at least in terms of the article space edits, one could argue their edits have only become disruptive when other editor,s wedded to their project consensus, continued reverting Frenchl's edits on that basis alone when they shouldn't have.

I long have thought that when the general editorship routinely make edits that are not in line with a project consensus, the project's editors should consider that they are going against general consensus, not to declare they have authority and change every related edit. For example, recently at the Venezuela project, where we have a project guideline that is always considered advice, one user started mass-changing articles to be in line with it, and he was indeed challenged on this and asked to stop by both project and non-project editors. Kingsif (talk) 21:21, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

And yet nobody (that I can see) has said "actually, Frenchl's edits are correct and his interpretation of the MOS is valid" - because they are not and it is not. It is not that the WikiProject is editing against MOS (it is not), it is that Frenchl is twisting the MOS to support his campaign of disruption. GiantSnowman 20:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I can see that Frenchl has not made edits since 22 July which is some relief. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:06, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

This is not me saying Frenchl's edits are correct: I'm not familiar with their mainspace edits besides reports of warring, and have seen their talkpage comments be increasingly disruptive. But 1. it's very rare that people comment on edits being correct, and 2. the only people who seem to have had an issue are those who are (as I put it) wedded to the project consensus. So I think your premise that nobody actively defending Frenchl's edits means they're wrong is flawed. And, of course, other users make similar edits but just back down when confronted - is everyone else wrong or is self-reflection in the project needed (especially since various individual users over the range of articles are not a defined group like the project, not going to work together to discuss or change). Kingsif (talk) 20:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: On Player manual of style of the WikiProject Football, the Note 6 links to the 2014 Request for Comment that says all nationalities should be mentioned in the opening sentence. So I'm not twisting the MOS, I'm respecting it. In July 2014 you said yourself X is a German-American soccer player would be "appropriate wording according to the RFC close". Cheers. Frenchl (talk) 23:35, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

You cannot cite a 9 year old RFC, especially when you know matters have changed. GiantSnowman 17:54, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: It seems that Frenchl's disruptive editing has stopped. Should he continue to disrupt Wikipedia, should I bring it back here to this page for further discussion? Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, although I remain concerned about their attitude/unwillingness to listen. GiantSnowman 19:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Wjemather

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Wjemather (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Johnsmith2116 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Wjemather has been unnecessarily undoing good edits from editors (myself and others ) for three years now. Editors have tried reasoning with that person over time, but that person does not want to listen. Several people in private chats have expressed their frustration with that person, simply because they don't know where else to turn to talk of their frustration.

That person's behaviour has not only been unproked, unneeded undoings of valid edits that no one else has ever had a problem with, but hypocritical also; the list is long of the times that that person would spitefully undo the very same type of edits that they themself have done before, throwing logic out the window. In other words, it's okay for themself, but not for others.

One other behaviour that makes that person unreasonable is making things up on the spot: An editor will do a good edit in the traditional way, but then this person in question will undo the edit with the excuse (paraphrasing), "Just because this is the traditional way is not an excuse to keep doing it that way.".

Trying to reason with that person has failed for years with many who have tried.

I've been editing on Wikipedia since 2007 and had never had any real problems from an editor until that one. I've been doing the same type of edits in the same way since the beginning, and in early 2020 that person came along and decided to be the first to take their own personal feelings and force feed them onto the Wikipedia community with uncalled for retractions that no one else had ever had a problem with. Nitpicking at every single turn, unJusifiably.

Most of that person's edits are undoings,, not additions, meaning the main purpose that person has had over the last three years has been to unneededly undo other people's edits, even when having to make up a reason to do so.

They have already had a series of edit warrings with another editor in the last 48 hours (see Contributions page), and now wants more edit warring. The desire for conflict out of this person is baffling.

Hypocrisy: Other editors have had edits very similar to mine, and this person had NO problem when the others did it, only when it is mine. So at this point, I have to assume it is personal, being done out of spite.

The newest undoing of my edits is one that could have been left alone (and likely WOULD HAVE been left alone had it been anyone else doing it). I do not make unproductive edits. These two upcoming examples in the following links are a new and typical example of this person's unneeded and petty undoings of my edits:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chronological_list_of_men%27s_major_golf_champions&diff=1166734754&oldid=1166732563

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AThe_Open_champions&diff=1166731289&oldid=1166731031

Simply to spite me, that person went and undid a good edit of mine on a page concerning a topic that they no absolutely nothing about: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_State_of_the_Union_Address&type=revision&diff=1063538815&oldid=1063093800

Also last year, that person went back on a previously agreed upon standard for preparing the WGC MATCH Play page, one in which that person had willingly agreed to the year before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_WGC-Dell_Technologies_Match_Play&diff=1079435859&oldid=1079434098

It gets worse, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't; If you do an edit one particular way, that person undoes it and criticizes you, but then if you do the edit the opposite way, that person still undoes it and criticizes you.

I would have to go and do weeks' worth of finding and citing all the examples of that person's gross, uncalled for undoings. For now, I will show a few examples of the kinds of edits that no one else ever had a a problem with, but this person is hell bent on interfering with anyway:

Undoing a perfectly good preparation that is done each week on the PGA Tour, for no reason ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Masters_Tournament&type=revision&diff=1141795948&oldid=1141795855

Undoing more preparation that is done as a normal thing in Wikipedia, for no reason ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AThe_Masters_champions&type=revision&diff=1141796145&oldid=1141796054

Other times, that person will try to get a page deleted, because in their OPINION the page was made "too early", something of which no one else has ever been known to complain about in recent years. There are links to show proof of this.

After three years of constant interference of spiteful, uncalled for undoings, we will not tolerate it any longer. I have been on here for sixteen years without serious trouble for 13 of them. Over the last three years, this constant hypocritical and unneeded interference won't be tolerated. Even the simple act of letting that person know, they lash back as if you are wronging them in some way, playing the victim. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 13:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• This is nothing more than a repeat of IncidentArchive1122#User:Wjemather (also related: IncidentArchive1123#User:Nigej). I don't think there is much to add to what was said then by myself, Nigej, Ravenswing and SMcCandlish with regards to these preparation edits – Johnsmith2116 should simply stop doing them. They should also desist from making personal attacks such as those contained in this filing. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 13:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
• Johnsmith2116 has repeatedly complained about people reverting his "preparation" edits. Despite receiving little or no support in the previous discussions he simply carries on doing exactly the same as he did before. The simple solution is for Johnsmith2116 to stop doing these "preparation" edits. It's true that for some years editors let these pointless edits go, on the basis that they were harmless enough and with the hope that he might do more useful edits. Personally I support Wjemather in trying to put an end to these "preparation" edits, enough is enough IMO. Nigej (talk) 14:01, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
• There seems to be a rather severe WP:IDHT problem at work with this editor. These weird "preparation" edits are not helpful; they just inject pointless, redundant, and potentially confusing junk into articles that someone has to later clean up (that the someone is sometimes Johnsmith2116 is not particularly relevant). I'm not sure why years of multiple editors objecting to this behavior is not making even the slightest dent in the behavior, but instead causing the editor to double down (now triple) and make like everyone else is being a bad guy. I think perhaps a very narrow topic-ban against performing these unhelpful injections of HTML-commented "either/or" pre-emptive text blobs should be considered. An exception could be made for Johnsmith2116 doing this stuff in their own user-space sandbox, of course. As long as the entire editorial pool isn't subjected to it at article after article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:09, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• (Uninvolved comment) I've never edited in the affected topic area before, but the sort of "preparation" edits being performed by the filer here do indeed seem pointless at best. This edit in particular actually creates more work, since it takes longer to delete the html comment characters than it does to type *2023 in the first place. I could see making a preparatory edit for something like a table row that requires a lot of formatting, where having a blank ready to go would be genuinely helpful, but not this trivial stuff. Just wait till things happen; Wikipedia about it afterward. Folly Mox (talk) 15:41, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
  • And edits like this where the two contestants in a match are added as the two possible winners (together with their seedings), seem particularly strange. Nigej (talk) 17:46, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

As someone never involved in any of this I'd like to chime in. I have sympathy for the experience and can understand some of the frustration @Johnsmith2116 may feel. I would suggest that all involved editors step back from language like "pointless" to describe these edits, and understand that to @Johnsmith2116 they may not seem pointless. People think in different ways, and some people thrive with or even require preparation.

I do believe it is fair to say these edits can create more work for other editors, and similar more factual descriptions, such statements can be a step towards establishing consensus.

All that said, I believe that @Johnsmith2116 would benefit from assuming good faith. These descriptions of other editors' actions or perceived intents can appear uncivil or worse. Beyond the civility issues, this also makes it harder for an editor to influence the broader consensus around the topic. Please consider, even if there was an implied consensus in the past, it's apparent that the consensus has shifted. This discussion is evidence of that. It may be time to find a different way of doing preparation, such as those suggested at WP:HIDDEN, or another tool that may work for you. For the time being, I think voluntarily ceasing these edits could help the situation in some small way. —siroχo 22:35, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Support topic ban for Johnsmith2116 on all "preparation" edits, broadly construed, anywhere but in the editor's own sandbox space. Cullen328 (talk) 19:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support TBAN peron Johnsmith2116 per above. I haven't seen much of their edits, but from what I have seen, there's a clear consensus against them (the edits). XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 00:35, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support TBAN on Johnsmith2116, "preparation" edits broadly construed, so as to include edits like this from late yesterday where he has added the two golfers in a playoff (hidden) and then makes another edit a few minutes later when the playoff is decided. Nigej (talk) 06:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support TBAN on Johnsmith2116, "preparation" edits broadly construed. To answer Siroxo's comment for having sympathy over frustration, Johnsmith2116 makes a point of saying that he's been editing for over fifteen years, that he's been having this particular problem for over three years, and he has over 27,000 edits. Especially since we went through this at ANI just four months ago, at some point we expect editors to get it; we should not have to keep teaching a fifteen year veteran how to Wiki.

  "No one complained until that guy did" applies to each and every complaint in the history of the world, so that doesn't do you any favors ... The answer to "But how else can I get this information in?" isn't to come up with some gimmick to do so over the objections of other editors. The answer is "You don't." If you cannot obtain a consensus for these edits, then you don't make them. No one hands out barnstars for being the first person to type in the champion's name in a tournament; this is an encyclopedia, not a race track, nor a competition." Those were my words from the March ANI. Since it is apparent that Johnsmith2116 either doesn't get it or doesn't give a damn, this is the next alternative. Ravenswing 01:51, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Ravenswing, I have no quarrel with this action, though I may choose not to weigh in with a !vote. I was mostly raising the context in which I believe this discussion should take place. Please note that my comment is largely in agreement with the consensus in this discussion, with acknowledgement that the consensus has likely shifted over the past 15 years. —siroχo 03:25, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  Quite possibly. But consensus in many areas has shifted over the years, often dramatically. Expecting Wikipedia to be frozen in time circa 2007 is wearing blinders at best, and angry rejection of change is poor practice. There are changes of which I approve, ones of which I don't, and like every other editor I have to live with them all whether I do or not. Johnsmith2116 would be far better off learning to do so than to defy them. Ravenswing 03:35, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think we're in agreement. —siroχo 03:38, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support TBAN as a remedy for the difficulty other editors have described facing. Noting also that while I have true sympathy for the frustrations Johnsmith2116 has faced, the approach the editor has taken has been unproductive in achieving consensus. I would hope the editors actions going forward work to remedy that approach, and that the topic ban becomes unnecessary in the future. —siroχo 04:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support TBAN for Johnsmith2116 from making preparation edits (broadly construed) anywhere outside their own sandbox. As noted, the vast majority of these edits serve no purpose or worse, are a hindrance to subsequent editors and occasionally even readers. Johnsmith2116 should also be warned (again) about their conduct, for which they have previously been blocked on multiple occasions. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:24, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support TBAN for Johnsmith2116 on all "preparation" edits, broadly construed, anywhere but in the editor's own sandbox space. Ultimately there's no such thing as a "preparation edit". You either make the edit, or you don't. I'm sure John is well-meaning with this and believes he's helping, but in the end it just makes the Wiki look messier and creates more work for other editors to clean up. — Czello ^(music) 11:47, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support TBAN as proposed by Cullen328. This behavior is unacceptable. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 06:11, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

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ZackCarns

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ZackCarns (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I noticed a recent diff [29] at 1920 United States presidential election in Maryland from this newer user, changing the image from an SVG file to a PNG they recently-uploaded to Commons. However, I find the background on the new image to be less-appealing. Worse, the new image has changed the result in St. Mary's county.

What should be done? Should I revert all the changes? Walt Yoder (talk) 22:01, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I fixed the issue in St. Mary's County. The issue with the background is something for others to decide if it is fine or not. ZackCarns (talk) 22:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Apart from the now corrected mistake, is this not just a question of personal preferences? Why bring this to ANI of all places? Personally I think that for graphics like this the svg format is preferable to png. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

That is my belief as well. If someone prefers the SVG format to the PNG format, then they can change the map into the SVG format over the PNG format and the issue of the incorrect shading of St. Mary's County has been fixed, so I would say that this issue has been resolved and the personal preferences are simply personal preferences. ZackCarns (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• Suggest Closure I think this is better off discussed in the article's talk page. --Lenticel ^(talk) 23:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  Ya think? EEng 08:48, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

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Wallenberg family

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• Wallenberg family (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• SpiritualMammser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wawa99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dexxa90cc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• AOW11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SMamzer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SpiritualMamzer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SpirreMamze (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I initially posted this to the conflict of interest noticeboard but was advised to move it here because of the amount of issues going on.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not entirely sure if this constitutes a conflict of interest or if it's just the work a well-intentioned but misguided user. I do feel like there is an issue that needs to be addressed here, but if it's not COI, please point me in the right direction.

Ever since 16 December 2020 the article about the Wallenberg family has grown exponentially, to the point where it's now mostly a collection of MOS violations. Without going into too much detail, it's become an exhaustive collection of statistics, embedded lists, minutiae, overlinking, and images (including a gallery). Also: quotes. Lots of blockquotes. Something about its neutrality feels off. It's like an attempt to showcase as many of the family's accomplishments as possible.

Almost all of this seems to be the work of a single-purpose user who has had a free rein over a period of three-and-a-half years to bloat the article to its current size – using multiple user accounts as well as dozens of IPs. The accounts listed above have contributed most (the one at the top in particular), but there are more. The vast majority of their edits are to the aforementioned article. Other edits—few and far between—are still mostly within the Wallenberg sphere. To individual Wallenbergs' articles for example. Next to some of the usernames being obviously similar, there's an easily discernable pattern in editing style as well as behavior. None of them ever leave an edit summary, for example. I do want to clarify that apart from a handful of minor instances these user accounts never appear to have been used concurrently. Also: most of their edits appear to be properly sourced. Excessively sourced, even. Nearly all of the IP edits since late 2020 exhibit a similar pattern and it also seems like all of them can be geolocated to the same general region.

This user lashed out the moment I tagged the article by engaging in contentious edit warring by constantly removing the maintenance templates ([30], [31], [32], [33]), about which I repeatedly warned them on their user page. This they eventually responded to by calling me a fascist dictator, which, not being the issue at hand here, I can live with. This panicked response of theirs has got me thinking that perhaps I'm not too far off in sensing a conflict of interest, because the other maintenance tags they ignore (though keep removing) yet they hone in on the COI tag. Jay D. Easy (t) 06:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

If nothing else, that article sure is a mess. Three massive family trees showing identical content in different formats, multiple screenfulls of blockquotes, a section consisting of pretty much nothing but 30+ images of places the family is somehow associated with, huge lists of what looks like every stock they own, citations that look like this [12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27] in the lede, etc. - Ljleppan (talk) 08:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Particularly true since the editors put way too many references and grouped them by numbers, and on the top are multiple issues such as the article way too long, dividing the article to many multiple sections and sub sections, and the main contributor suggested to be obsessed with the subject. The article itself has 58 (sub)sections, 152 templates, and 273 citations clogging up the article. ToadetteEdit ^(chat)/_(logs) 08:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Stub it. Or something almost as drastic. It can't be fixed bit by bit. Doug Weller talk 08:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I cut some of the most egregious excesses, but I agree: someone really needs to seriously cut the article back. It's currently over 8500 words, excluding the frankly excessive lists and blockquotes Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The Engwall Family one had entire sections just copied and pasted from individual people's articles dropped in with no attribute. Entire articles (minus categories and infoboxes.) Canterbury Tail talk 20:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright: I just took an axe to the article, but it still needs a lot of pruning, in a little more delicate fashion than simple "What the merry hell is a giant section detailing the business empire doing in a family article?" COATRACK violations galore, and I note with displeasure that some of the sections about certain family members are significantly larger than their actual articles. With that, I'm fine with Doug Weller's suggestion below to bring the article back to the pre-SPI 2017 version. Ravenswing 14:52, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I am also fine with this suggestion. Despite the pruning already done there is still a lot left to do. It would be easier to bring back an older revision. Jay D. Easy (t) 19:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

SpiritualMammser, SMamzer. SpiritualMamzer, SpirreMamze seem like obvious sockpuppets. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The only probable non SPA I see is Dexxa90cc. We need to trim down to before the last obvious SPA at least. Doug Weller talk 08:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

SPI case filed. -Lemonaka‎ 09:56, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the comment at the SPI that there seems to be no violation of our policy, these accounts edited sequentially, not at the same time. How about back to [34] which would still need cleaning up. Doug Weller talk 12:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I just found another one. Engwall family has got the exact same thing going on. Looks nearly identical to the one on the Wallenberg family. Similarly most edits up until now appear to have been made by two users leaving no edit summaries. My money says it's likely the same user. Jay D. Easy (t) 14:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd say that's a dead certainty. Look at the language and the wording of the headers, never mind the similarities of the treatment being used on another prominent Swedish extended mercantile family. Ravenswing 14:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Out of the two users that have worked on it most, the last one to heavily contribute to it does seem to actively edit other pages as well. I wouldn't rule out the possibility it's a sockpuppet entirely—there are still a lot of similarities in editing style—but it seems less likely now. Jay D. Easy (t) 18:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Just means the puppetmaster isn't a total SPA, not that it isn't socking. Ravenswing 01:38, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

For related recent discussion see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1133 § Funkyuggla. And for another similar Swedish family mess to the Wallenbergs and Engwalls, see Helin family. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:22, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Good catch. I've added it to the comments in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SpiritualMamzer. Jay D. Easy (t) 05:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Noting that I've blocked SpiritualMammser for disruptive editing, along with a failure to communicate about their edits. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 01:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

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More visits from the dog and rapper vandal

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• Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Dog and rapper vandal
• 2600:4040:7A06:6F00:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

Two days ago we briefly blocked the range Special:Contributions/2607:FB91:E2F:8B41:0:0:0:0/64 as part of the ongoing problem with Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Dog and rapper vandal. The person switched to Special:Contributions/2600:4040:7A06:6F00:0:0:0:0/64 and kept editing. He confirmed on a talk page that he was the dog and rapper vandal and has been active for a long time. Can we block the /64 range? Binksternet (talk) 00:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Blocked for 72 hours. RickinBaltimore (talk) 00:49, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Rick - any objections if I extend that block to a couple of years? It looks like the same person going back to June of last year, on and off. Girth Summit _(blether) 07:35, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

By all means go right ahead. RickinBaltimore (talk) 11:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

How many editors does this block affect? Sweet6970 (talk) 12:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Effectively, no-one apart from the vandal at the moment. A /64 range is generally a single editor. Obviously with dynamic IP addresses that /64 may get reassigned in the future to another node, but this one looks pretty static. Black Kite (talk) 13:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for this response. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah - from the editing pattern, I'm pretty confident this will only affect one user, who was banned long, long ago. Sometimes a /64 ranges might be shared by more than one person - it might potentially affect a whole household, or something like that, but I don't think so in this case. Girth Summit _(blether) 15:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

You had my interest piqued for a moment there, Bink: I thought maybe this guy was of the habit of adding random raps about dogs to articles. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 09:55, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

For the record, Special:Contributions/71.185.250.74 was blocked today as part of the same LTA case. And Special:Contributions/2607:FB91:E4C:D79C:EC21:7306:80B4:4A87 is complaining at User talk:71.185.250.74 about being blocked. Binksternet (talk) 16:11, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

And that's been range /64 blocked for 3 months. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

All done here. Binksternet (talk) 16:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

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User:Welso

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Pretty sure this is a troll. I'd block them, but they were editing an article I've worked on. I'm on mobile, so excuse the mobile diffs (btw, what a busted system, can't we fix that??). Recent highlights include them editing "Ligma" to add...well you know what [35], weird flag spam [36], comments on the nature of his scrotum [37], nonsequiturs about drinking [38], nonsequiturs about drugs [39], etc. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 16:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That’s a troll, for sure. Blocked. Courcelles (talk) 16:44, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

@Courcelles thank you, so speedy too! CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 16:49, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

CaptainEek, I fixed up your mobile diffs for you so nobody else's eyes have to bleed. You can edit them manually, but if you use 'desktop' mode on your cellphone (nod to Cullen328) you don't have to worry about that kind of thing. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Since I got pinged, I will mention that I was on the brink of blocking Welso, but the efficient Courcelles beat me to it. Cullen328 (talk) 17:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I also use desktop mode on my cellphone and tablet. I hate the mobile look. Lavalizard101 (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

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NLT, subject of news article

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Johnson524&diff=prev&oldid=1162386218

https://indyweek.com/news/durham/durham-officials-directed-city-attorney-to-try-to-unmask-anonymous-wikipedia-editors/ SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Just giving that a first glance, should the WMF's Legal group step in here? This looks a lot bigger than a legal threat. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Legal should absolutely be given a head's up, if they're not already. With that, one wonders if these chowderhead pols have ever heard of the Streisand effect? Ravenswing 22:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm. That's a funny one. I am not sure it's a legal threat per se, but I sure don't like it. Dumuzid (talk) 18:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I am tempted to leave a friendly message saying, in effect, "this is not how talk pages should be used," but I'll wait for the wiser admin heads to decide on a plan of action first. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Obviously we aren't going to dox whoever added the signature... but it does bring up an interesting point. I try to keep my head out of the copyright/fair use whirlpools but can anyone vouch that the file has been properly sourced and that its usage isn't any kind of copyvio? Again, this is more me asking than trying to say it can't possibly be. GabberFlasted (talk) 18:55, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The user has replied to to the demands, by putting that file up for deletion. [40] I think the editor might have done this out of fear of the legal repercussions.
I think they cropped it out of a certificate of theirs, which had the mayors sign on it. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:02, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

This is my concern, it's tagged and licensed as the uploader's own work, but unless they are indeed the mayor (what a false flag operation that would be) it can't be tagged and released as that. Taking a photo of some media or portion of it doesn't mean it's theirs. Canterbury Tail talk 19:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That is my take too, may have been a GF-mistake ("I took a photo of it, so it's my own work"). To have something to compare to, I looked at [41]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

And if it's a certificate or similar it was taken from, I wouldn't think that's a general public access source so there's no public rights to it. It's similar to someone signing a letter, unless the letter is a matter of public record in a released rights environment it couldn't be used except under non-fair use clauses. Would be interesting to get @Diannaa:'s view on this. Canterbury Tail talk 19:24, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

According to the news story, the picture came from a playbill at the Durham Performing Arts Center. Assuming that is correct, copyright may be a concern, but it would not be the mayor's to assert. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:25, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so it's likely that the copyright resides with DPAC depending on the rights release to them by the mayor giving the letter. Not my area of expertise. All I know is the current licensing on the image is incorrect. Canterbury Tail talk 19:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Fwiw, the Joe Biden sig has a This signature is believed to be ineligible for copyright and therefore in the public domain because it falls below the required level of originality for copyright protection both in the United States... template. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you see Commons:Deletion requests/File:Elaine O'Neal signature.jpg? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Note that the IW article covers the "story" of the signature in some detail, including "But while it’s illegal to use her signature inappropriately, there’s nothing illegal about posting an image of it on Wikipedia." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:49, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I’ve sent a message to the WMF just to make them aware. Courcelles (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Would Kimlynn69 ought to be sanctioned for undisclosed WP:COI editing, which they have admitted to themselves? Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Per their edithistory [42], telling them about WP:COI may be the place to start. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:36, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the signature from the BLP article because of the request from the mayor's representative, and Wikipedia:Signatures of living persons. That's an essay that I believe gives good guidance in this circumstance. Cullen328 (talk) 19:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That's reasonable. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I think removal of the signature is appropriate. I don't care for bullying a kid who's helping build an encyclopedia. Dumuzid (talk) 19:47, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Reading between the lines of the news article, I don't get the impression the City Attorney is especially enthusiastic about pursuing this matter. Technically, she reports to City Council as a whole, not just the Mayor. She represents the City, not the Mayor's personal interest.

I see serious Streisand effect issues looming!

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 20:35, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

"I don’t expect that Wikipedia will pay one mind to that letter. And there won't be next steps from my office, because I do not have authorization from the city council to pursue this as a legal matter." Sounds to me like she only wrote the letter to get those people of her back. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The indyweek article was updated. Turns out the WMF never got the letter because it was sent to the wrong address. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 14:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

A partial skyline of Durham's skyscrapers to break up the wall of text I wrote.

Hello, I'm user who uploaded the signature here, Johnson524. While I discussed this to some extent on my talk page, I feel I may have not done a well-enough job on explaining how I got the signature there, so I'll repeat it here now. I did not get the signature from a plaque or anything of that matter, which I believe would violate a few privacy laws, but from a standard 'Welcome to DPAC' pamphlet given out to all of those who go there. On one of the earlier pages of the pamphlet, there is a message from the Mayor of Durham (Elaine O'Neal) also welcoming you, with her signature at the bottom. To repeat, this signature is openly available to the thousands who visit DPAC everyday for plays and performances, and by no means is private anymore, as this message, and accompanying signature, has been reproduced tens of thousands of times. Furthermore, Durham as a city also is by no means small, and hosts a population of about 280,000. Seeing other politician's Wikipedia pages, such as the North Carolina governor Roy Cooper's page, have a signature, I believed this one also to be of fair use.

Now though, honestly, I don't care about the signature, this whole thing terrifies me. Like said in that news report, I am 17, and a high schooler. This is way beyond anything I ever expected to happen to me on Wikipedia, as I mainly write about Ukraine and dumb songs I like. Of my nearly 3,000 edits on this project, never once have I feared being contacted by city authorities of a place that I don't live in, for something I didn't even know I did wrong. If it ends this whole thing, please, delete the signature, as seeing the text on the bottom of that official letter written about this situation by the City Attorney: "[to find] the identity and real name of user "Johnson524"," scares the crap out of me. Thank you @Gråbergs Gråa Sång: for bringing this discussion to my attention. I will be available here to answer anymore questions you may have. Johnson524 (Talk!) 21:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

You did absolutely nothing wrong. Citing from the indyweek article:

"Under state law, O’Neal’s facsimile signature is not a public record, says Brooks Fuller, the director of the North Carolina Open Government Coalition at Elon University. But while it’s illegal to use her signature inappropriately, there’s nothing illegal about posting an image of it on Wikipedia. The city had no legal basis to ask to take it down, Fuller says—especially because O’Neal already knew where the image came from."

"Rehberg told O’Neal in an email chain obtained by the INDY. 'Given the terms of service for Wiki, and the fact that the User obtained the information from materials that are widely disseminated to the public, there is little legal basis to demand that Wiki reveal the identity of the User or prohibit the upload of a photo of the signature to the Mayor’s Wiki page.'"

It's also pretty clear that the city attorney just did this to get those three politicians off her back:

"I don’t expect that Wikipedia will pay one mind to that letter. And there won’t be next steps from my office, because I do not have authorization from the city council to pursue this as a legal matter."

Unfortunately, instead of telling those politicians that there is no legal basis for their demands, she chose to scare the shit out of a few kids to make her own life a little easier. I wonder where lawyers get such a bad rep. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for that message, I really did not think I was doing anything wrong when uploading that signature, or else I never would have done it. I updated the signature's license on Commons last night (link here: c:File:Elaine O'Neal signature.jpg#Licensing) to something not CC0 (which I only put originally since I uploaded the file). Are these better from a legal standpoint, if the file is to be kept? Johnson524 (Talk!) 21:46, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

It still states that it's your own work as the source, which is isn't. So that would need rectifying. However ultimately while it's likely legal and fine, I question the value of having it. What encyclopaedic niche does having the signature of some government official fill? But that's a question for the use of signatures in general, I would find it rare for them to be useful. Canterbury Tail talk 21:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

There is a template for signatures: Template:PD-signature (see commons:Commons:When_to_use_the_PD-signature_tag for more information). However this essay suggests that "If a person (or a representative of) requests that their signature be removed from an article, the signature should be removed". That seems reasonable to me. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 22:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I am more than OK to see the file be deleted, I just made that edit in case it were to be kept, because at least than it would be better than an incorrect CC0. Johnson524 (Talk!) 22:10, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The claim of potential fraud with the signature is clearly nonsensical if it is openly available on a playbill given to thousands of people (and is much easier to fake with said playbill than with the low quality version used here). I see no reason to remove it at all. Just update the file for what the actual source is. Silverseren^C 22:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

+1 Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I think, from reading the article, that the attorney also knows this is a sham and legally, going nowhere. Correct the sourcing, and if the editor doesnt themselves feel comfortable adding the picture to the article, someone else can do it. Hell, I could, and good luck trying to sue me halfway across the world. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I think this is what I find so irksome about the entire situation -- the talk page post was basically an inane and completely groundless lawyer letter posted to Wikipedia. Dumuzid (talk) Dumuzid (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I would absolutely be shaken if I'd found it on my talkpage. And I'm older than 17. That said I think "Before reaching out to Wikimedia's general counsel, however, I thought I would first try to resolve this amicably through user channels." was reasonably sincere, and not per se meant to be hostile. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

It's possible that it was just case of terribly poor judgement. From the article it seems to me like she probably just did all this to get those three politicians off her back and to be able to tell them "I tried". And I wouldn't have an issue with the letter sent to WMF because they know how to deal with this kind of thing, which is something she seems to be aware of: "I don't expect that Wikipedia will pay one mind to that letter." But going to a user page saying "hey I am a lawyer ..." is too heavy handed, especially when you know that the demands have no legal basis. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure many of you will be aware, but for those who aren't, this is a common practice in the legal field: sending a formal cease-and-desist nastygram in the expectation that the great majority of recipients will be scared off, even if they don't remotely have a legal leg to stand on. It works altogether too often, especially when some major corporation -- or government -- is secure in the knowledge that they outlawyer the little guy 50:1. Ravenswing 18:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

And the mayor was a judge for over twenty years and served as interim dean of a law school ... -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• This incident should definitely figure prominently in these people's articles. Honestly, the nerve. EEng 08:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  No, it shouldn't. This is what "Mentioned by media-org" talkpage templates are for. The Signpost will probably mention it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, it should. Mentioned by media-org is for when the media just happens to mention the article for some reason. In this case, the subject of the article did something, which happened to relate to WP, and that's gotten coverage. EEng 15:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

  "gotten coverage" is not good enough per WP:PROPORTION. Including it is WP:NAVELGAZING (that essay is an essay, btw). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Elaine_O'Neal_(politician)#Including_the_recent_WP-whatever_that_was_in_the_news_in_the_WP-article_text_BRD, for the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

• Hi all, what an interesting few days this has been. I want to start with saying to Johnson524 that you did nothing legally wrong and I am sorry that you have been brought into this rather, um, terrifying argument between adults serving in government. I hope this does not make you feel like you can't continue to contribute to Wikipedia. Your work and contributions are valued! Like you, I started editing Wikipedia when I was a high school student (centuries ago). I hope you continue to build up this amazing public resource. I want to introduce myself as one of the users named in the Indy Week article ("Rehberg wrote in the letter that Holsey-Hyman “contends that the allegations are fabricated” and thus seeks to obtain the identity of user Willthacheerleader18, who created Holsey-Hyman’s page and wrote much of its content"). I created the articles for both DeDreana Freeman and Monique Holsey-Hyman (and I never foresaw a situation like this occuring.. I've written dozens, if not hundreds, of articles on people involved in government and politics, and this has never happened to me before). I was contacted this past Friday afternoon by a reporter from Indy Week, who was able to identify me off of Wikipedia, and asked for comment, which was my first time hearing of this controversy. I contacted Wikipedia's legal team later that day, as the journalist informed me that Councilwomen Freeman and Holsey-Hyman were trying to reveal my identity. This has been a scary time, and I hope our converstations here lead to something productive. I will say that I disagree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång, this should absolutely be added to the articles of O'Neal, Freeman, and Holsey-Hyman IMHO. But, seeing as I am one of the editors they are after, I am not going to contribute to adding any more "unflattering" information at this time. I fear social and personal repercussions from these politicians in my community and I do not want to put myself further at risk. I will continue to contribute to conversation and dialogue here, but I will refrain from editing their pages right now. Do we know if the other editor named in the article has been notified? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 15:54, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Mako001, how are you doing with all of this? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Meh, you get that sorta stuff on RC patrol. I hope that she has fun trying to get past a. WMF, and b. My ISP, because neither are likely to comply with that waste of paper. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 22:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Theres enough coverage on this to add it, see the T/P of the article. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 16:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm proud to have gotten the first whiff of this lol SWinxy (talk) 01:46, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 06:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Obviously doxxing is only a crime when you're not in charge. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 06:00, 28 July 2023 (UTC) Has anyone in this story actually been doxxed at this point? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC) @Gråbergs Gråa Sång: As far as I'm aware, no, nothing has happened since the original threats were made. Johnson524 (Talk!) 06:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC) That was my impression too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:38, 28 July 2023 (UTC) I mean, do you honestly think the City of Durham would violate basic human rights (namely the right to privacy) over a signature? Government is ridiculous, but not that ridiculous. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 06:41, 28 July 2023 (UTC) Then I still don't understand your "Obviously doxxing is only a crime when you're not in charge." comment, but that may not be important. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:45, 28 July 2023 (UTC) Basically, no they wouldn't doxx anyone, but in the case where the City of Durham would doxx Wikipedia editors, no one would be charged. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 06:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC) Ok. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:53, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thespeedoflightneverchanges

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is a new user who has edited in violation of NPOV on Elissa Slotkin and Sabina Matos, two Democratic Party politicians for higher office. Their behavior on Slotkin's article on July 22 resulted in ECP being applied to the article. Now they are adding BLP violations to Matos's page (in short, her campaign is under criminal investigation, not her personally) and is edit warring to keep their preferred version. They are combative on their talk page. I think this editor has demonstrated that they are not fit to edit in post-1992 American politics. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

What the source says is :"with the Democratic lieutenant governor now facing multiple criminal investigations into forged signatures on her nomination papers amid growing questions about election integrity in Rhode Island." It says "the Democratic lieutenant governor" is facing multiple criminal investigation. You are administrator do not mean you can twist what the source says into something you imagine.

https://www.wpri.com/target-12/matos-signature-scandal-spreads-across-ri-ag-now-taking-the-lead-on-investigation/ Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 01:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Her campaign is facing criminal investigations, but you've written that she is personally, which is not true. We hold a fine line on WP:BLP issues. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:36, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The source says "The Lueutinent Governor",not "The Lieutinant Governor's campaign" is "now facing multiple criminal investigations". If you interpret it based on something you know but not in the source it violates WP:NOR Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 01:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

You have to read beyond the first paragraph of a source. The AP is a better source than WPRI, and they say Matos said the vendor has been fired and she is cooperating with the state attorney general. and The investigation is focused in part on part-time field campaign workers who gathered and submitted the signatures for Matos. Your editing is clearly beyond the scope of the sourcing. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Reading the article makes it abundantly clear that the staff is beinig investigated, not the Lt. Gov. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The investigation is focused "in part on" part-time field campaign workers who gathered and submitted the signatures for Matos. "In part on" means to some extent though not entirely so it can't deny that she is under investigation which is proved by WPRI article. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Muboshgu. I specifically avoided pursuing a block for their NPOV/BLP issues, because it initially seemed isolated to Slotkin’s article and they weren’t the only user causing problems, but now that it has spread to Matos’s article, I feel that we may be well into WP:CIR territory. I recommend reviewing this discussion on Slotkin’s talk page and this overview of the situation which resulted in the page getting ECP, to give a better sense of this user’s behavior and their difficulty grasping Wikipedia policies.

I’ll also say that (and this is admittedly anecdotal and difficult to verify here) I’ve interacted with this individual on other platforms in reference to these edits. While I do feel that they mean well and that they legitimately believe that their edits are actually addressing NPOV issues (rather than worsening them), I don’t think they understand Wikipedia’s mission. I think that there’s a real disconnect between an edit being well-meaning and something being beneficial to an article, and frankly at this point I’m skeptical that that distinction will come across anytime soon. Also, an understated issue at play with these edits is the presence of numerous spelling and grammatical errors. That goes beyond sourcing/OR disputes and is just a clear lack of competence in my view. Cpotisch (talk) 01:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

If you said so I can concede but his edit also delete many informations that should be kept. The correct way to change this should just replase "Mastos" with "Mastos' Campaign" on the section talking about the investigation instead of deleting most of the contents. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 01:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I’ve done a further review of recent edits, and I feel like the BLP/NPOV/etc issues should almost be considered a moot point, given that the actual legibility of every single edit really is quite egregiously bad. I won’t even link to specific examples, because as far as I can tell, every single edit is in completely broken English. I think that this calls for more than a topic ban, to be honest. Can this editor make positive changes to any article with these problems? Cpotisch (talk) 02:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

As to the Sabina Matos Page I have tried to use the sentences that is used in the sources as much as possible. Most of the sentences in fact are directly copy-pasted from the source to avoid grammar problems.For example："Masto faced multiple criminal investigations into forged signatures on her nomination papers" is directly copied from " the Democratic lieutenant governor now facing multiple criminal investigations into forged signatures on her nomination papers" with "the Democratic lieutenant governor" being replaced by her name.I believe the source themselves have proper grammar so directly using their original sentences can avoid a lot of problems. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 02:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Copy and pasting introduces problems of copyright violation and plagiarism. You have to be able to summarize sources in your own words. If you can't write in proper English you should reconsider working on a collaborative writing project. MrOllie (talk) 03:06, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Beyond that newly called out issue of copy-pasting sources, I also wonder why your edits continue to refer to her as "Mastos" when her name is "Matos".[43] I think Cpotisch is right about CIR. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

You wrote During the special election campaign in Rhode Island's 1st congressional district Mastos is investigated by Rhode Island State Police on fraudulent signatures on nomination papers. That is a misrepresentation of the Associated Press article that you cited, and poorly written as well. Cullen328 (talk) 03:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

So do I, I've seen enough. Indeffed for broad-spectrum competency issues. Acroterion (talk) 03:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Just want to give y’all a heads up also that because of the indef, he just asked me to make edits on his behalf (I obviously won’t), and also said that he’s part of a group effort of editors from Twitter who “all hate Slotkin”, including Methanerocketancestor (who had been a part of the original abortion-related conflict), so for any one who still has the bandwidth to do so, you might want to keep a look out for any newish users attempting to continue Thespeedoflight’s efforts. Cpotisch (talk) 03:31, 26 July 2023 (UTC)::::::

Slotkin's article already has ECP protection. I've semi-protected Matos's article as a precaution. Acroterion (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Another sock at Dadvan Yousuf

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Background: Dadvan Yousuf was edit protected as a bunch of new accounts were attempting to whitewash the article by removing negatvie coverage. Now Special:Contributions/HaLIHianl an account registered two months ago has just repopped up to game autoconfirmed status and then continue the same edits all the prior socks did. Please block there is no SPI I am aware of to report this to and no idea who the master is. Lavalizard101 (talk) 10:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I know I've blown through WP:3RR, but as its socking exemption 3 of WP:3RRNO applies. Lavalizard101 (talk) 10:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Sock is calling the sourced negative information "deformation" [44]. Lavalizard101 (talk) 10:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Their latest edit summary is now calling me a "sock" for some reason [45]. Lavalizard101 (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

At their talk page they are saying I "operate deformation" User talk:HaLIHianl. Lavalizard101 (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

And more dissemination of misinformation by Lavalizard101. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The sock has now added a copyvio to the article [46] revdel already requested. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Blocked by User:Callanecc via Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kanimultan. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Martdj, Martin Kulldorff, and odd crusade

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Martdj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Martin Kulldorff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

AFAIK, I've never had any interaction with this user. However, they pinged me to a thread they opened at User talk:Michael.C.Wright#I am totally shocked by what I see here. Michael was blocked by EdJohnston in September 2022 for edit-warring at Martin Kulldorff. About a month later I indeffed Michael for continuing to edit-war at the same article. Michael's last post at the end of last year pinged several administrators and complained about everything under the sun. No one responded to his post until Martdj, who complained about Yamla being "too lazy to read" and said that I should be desysopped.

About an hour earlier, Martdj initiated another thread at User talk:AhmetYu#Your comments on the Talk page were spot on. Martdj appears to be soliciting AhmetYu's participation in a joint effort of "about 10" editors to "overrule" a smaller group of unnamed editors to "fix some of Wikipedia's pages". Not coincidentally, I blocked Ahmet at the end of 2022 for "Disruptive editing, including violating 3RR at Martin Kulldorff based on a report at WP:AN3, personal attacks, political agenda, battleground mentality". Ahmet's only edits to this project (not very many) were to the Kulldorff article and its Talk page. They did not post to their Talk page after the block. Martdj, who has made only 27 edits to the project, 22 of which were this month, made 14 edits to Kulldorff and its Talk page. Aoidh blocked Martdj yesterday for edit-warring at the Kulldorff article.

Martdj's conduct here is completely inappropriate, a combination of a WP:SPA's WP:NOTHERE, personal attacks, and a strange attempt at forming a conspiracy of editors. Although I'm technically not WP:INVOLVED, I don't feel comfortable blocking an editor who has just attacked me, so I've brought it here.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I suspect Martdj looked into Michael.C.Wright after I mentioned that Wright had been following a pattern: disagree with a source/claim statement is unsourced (because they think the source is wrong)/edit war because statement must be removed for BLP reasons - a pattern which lead to an indef block. Martdj has been making the same arguments and edit warring over the same paragraph. I agree that this user is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia - they are here to push fringe narratives about COVID-19. MrOllie (talk) 13:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm involved at Kulldorff. I'd like to highlight the incivility toward both Yamla ("too lazy to read") and Bbb23 ("an absolute disgrace to a community project"). I'm not sure how to read their comment at Ahmet Yu's talk page as anything other than an invitation to sockpuppetry and/or off-wiki coordination. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I've indef blocked them. Their behavior up to the point where I p-blocked them yesterday was questionable enough and I had considered an indef block then, but thought it best to start small, but their subsequent WP:NOTHERE behavior, including the personal attacks, are unacceptable. - Aoidh (talk) 13:42, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Some likely block evasion to keep an eye on: 109.38.137.240 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) MrOllie (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Continued disruptive edit requests at Talk:List of The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius episodes

As described in a previous ANI thread, a troll has been using the IP ranges 148.76.224.0/23 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) and 192.208.124.0/23 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)), as well as 173.19.60.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) to post disruptive faux-CIR edit requests on Talk:List of The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius episodes (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs), which I've been removing. I haven't looked into it too closely, but there also seem to be some issues with the same IPs adding unsourced content to articles about TV shows. The two ranges geolocate to the same area, and they've both been recently blocked for similar behavior. — SamX [talk · contribs] 16:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Also 173.17.94.228 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) — SamX [talk · contribs] 04:28, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Inappropriate behavior of Becausewhynothuh?

• Becausewhynothuh? (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The editor Becausewhynothuh? insist on changing the status quo by changing sequentially and serially the order of photos in the infoboxes of various city articles (such as Madrid, Rome, Beijing, Houston, Chicago, Richmond, Virginia, Indianapolis, London, etc.) promoting edit wars. He has already been warned about this kind of regrettable behavior by me and the editors Cerebral726 and Indyguy, but instead of correcting his actions, he preferred to attack personally. I request the intervention of administrators in this case. Chronus (talk) 18:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Unlike Chronus, I came to a consensus with Indyguy. Furthermore, Cerebral726 and I have been having a detailed discussion, without threatening a fellow editor and lacking cordiality.

Unfortunately, Chronus has failed to try and start any sort of meaningful discussion which I already showed I was partaking in. 'warned' Chronos is being insincere in the way he depicts my convos with the other editors when all that happened was Indyguy told me why a particular edit wouldn't be apt for a page while Cerebral and I did come to a consensus on an article about Madrid. Chronos however felt it was a good idea to make odd emotional comments in his edit summaries like 'STOP!' instead of explaining himself in any sort of way, even if it were for a different article altogether.

Also, Chronos hasn't been self-aware as reverting constantly to reach status quo is still edit warring. On the other hand, I've not reverted a single edit of his. Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 18:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Becausewhynothuh? I mentioned at least two project policies that you systematically disregard: WP:STATUSQUO and WP:WAR. And which imaginary "consensus" is this that you think you have reached? The editor Cerebral726 still disagrees with your behavior just as you have also been warned by Canterbury Tail and was reversed by Indyguy. The "stop" summaries were made only after I had already sent messages on your talk page explaining what was happening. And you did revert an edit of mine. Don't try to rewrite the facts and please don't lie. Chronus (talk) 18:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

'aS wElL aS iNdYgUy' you can't help but be blatantly mendacious or what? Indyguy did a single revert and I left it at that because his reason made sense.

Cerebral disagrees with one aspect of my edit. We still managed to talk and reach consensus on the other aspect of my edit.

If you could try reading a little instead of being so aggressive, you'd not have started this whole faux pas in the first place. Stop threatening others or being so brusque for absolutely no reason. Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 18:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Becausewhynothuh? You haven't "reached consensus" anywhere, much less tried to do so. You simply stopped reverting as Indyguy maintained the status quo. "Cerebral disagrees with one aspect of my edit." This is simply another lie. Anyone who enters yours talk page will see that he still disagrees with yours nonsensical edits and that he is still reverting yours edits in different articles. Your behavior is embarrassing and inappropriate. Chronus (talk) 18:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Honestly never been as embarrassed seeing another editor's lies and emotional faux pas as I have been seeing yours. The way you talk, it seems you'd burst out crying at any moment lol wtf is up with your constant exclamation marks, exaggeration and general lack of decorum.

Anyone who enters will see that Cerebral and I were being cordial with each other. You keep lying shamelessly about me not trying to reach consensus despite having a civil discussion for so long with Cerebral. Let alone the fact that he did in fact disagree with one aspect, whilst sympathising with my good faith approach. 'nonsensical edits' you have 0 idea what the edits even have been and all you do is spout rhetoric without any rational approach.

Your behaviour is laughable. Inappropriate would be an understatement to describe the depth of your failures over the past hour. Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 18:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, I had to repeatedly initiate creating consensus after you started an edit war. You continued after our lengthy discussion to not follow WP:BRD. Please do not engage in personal attacks. Cerebral726 (talk) 18:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

No you didn't. I already stated that the reasonings you were giving in edit summaries were being used by me to make better, constructive edits. you didn't have to repeatedly initiate creating consensus, i wasted over an hour of time that could have been better spent elsewhere trying to discuss civilly with you only for you to now claim that I was not doing so.

I have no interest in personal attacks, I'm just responding to the person above me Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 19:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Becausewhynothuh? Yeah, I would seriously consider striking that little rant before someone comes along and decides it's a PA. Black Kite (talk) 19:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

fine wtv. Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Becausewhynothuh?: I reverted your edit because you deleted someone else's comment. By striking it Black Kite means striking through. People have already responded to your message so don't delete it completely, and definitely don't delete another users comment as you did. Canterbury Tail talk 19:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Becausewhynothuh?: Additionally your "wtv" reply indicates that you're not taking this at all seriously. I suggest you do as you're quite close to being blocked for mass edit warring across multiple articles. Canterbury Tail talk 19:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Becausewhynothuh?: Please see WP:REDACTED for information on how to do what Canterbury Tail and Black Kite requested. Cerebral726 (talk) 19:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Becausewhynothuh?: How old are you? Is this kind of behavior (that you blatantly tried to hide) coming from an adult? Have you ever read WP:PA? Your deeply disrespectful comments about me and your absolute disregard for our most basic norms of civility are a good example of the kind of editor you are. I hope the administrators takes action on this kind of disruptive behavior that has no place in a collaborative environment. @Cerebral726: Thank you very much for showing that this editor has been blatantly lying since the beginning of this thread. Chronus (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

And all too late, Becausewhynothuh? decided that despite all the warnings and this discussion that they would just continue their campaign of edits without discussing on the talk pages. Canterbury Tail talk 19:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ponyo, Canterbury Tail, and Becausewhynothuh?: User continues to edit war: [47][48]

Qiushufang (Inappropriate/ biased editing and comments about users)

Qiushufang is one of many biased editors who have a Han-chinese ethnocentric focus and pushes historical revisionism that distorts the cultures of the people neighboring and even within china (such as Uighurs, etc). Due to the heavily Han-chinese ethnic bias in the article multiple editors needed to clean up the unverified an biased content in the article "Yuan Dynasty" (the Mongolian history in China).

After editors tried to verify and substantiate claims, Qiushufang, reverted changes inappropriately and egregiously multiple times within a 24 hour window and even made violation reports about editors with inappropriate speculation around them being "Arabic in origin". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumaiyahle (talk • contribs) 18:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Sumaiyahle why have you brought this here? User:Qiushufang made one throwaway comment about your username three weeks ago, and apologised for and retracted their statement a few hours later, before you even replied to the thread. Neither of you have even edited Yuan dynasty since I finished cleaning up the sources a few days ago, nor Talk:Yuan dynasty in two days. It's not even clear from the conversation there what exactly the issue is that you're unsatisfied with the article about. Folly Mox (talk) 07:29, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok, for accountability, since this is such a highly watched page, I didn't so much finish cleaning up the sources as I did low key abandon the task after dealing with the most egregious problems. There are still plenty of weak sources. Other work overtook me. Folly Mox (talk) 07:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

And the problem with the sourcing at Yuan dynasty wasn't that the sources were biased: it was that the sources were trash. Circular references, off topic nonsense that mentioned a single keyword, primary school textbooks, an "op. cit." reference to a source that was never specified, bare URL google books links that had been incorrectly procedurally expanded into citation templates without double checking, duplicate sources hosted on different domains, etc.

I haven't combed through the history to see who all was responsible for adding all that, but some of it had been in place since like 2018, so it's probably a stale issue and hopefully whomever is to blame has learned how to source better. Folly Mox (talk) 17:58, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

POV edits

• Portwoman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Portwoman made a change to the lead of Hindu Terrorism, where they removed the word "alleged" [49] and then edit warred over it [50][51] when I tried to revert to the status quo version.

When asked to explain their rationale, they refused to do so, and instead told me I had no consensus for my version. I found this behaviour weird, and upon checking, came across several problematic edits.

[52] - Inserted "Category:Hindutva Terrorism" when the page has no mention of either Hindutva or Terrorism.

[53] - Inserted "Category:Hindutva Terrorism" when the page has no mention of Terror/Terrorism of any kind.

[54] - Removed a large section of massacres that happened during the 1971 Bangladesh Genocide under the edit summary "miscellaneous".

[55] - Removed the same section of massacres that happened during the 1971 Bangladesh Genocide under the edit summary "WP:SPAM".

[56] - removed mention of a man converting away from Islam with the edit summary "false: Harilal Gandhi did not reconvert". The source cited in the article clearly mentions the reconversion.

[57] - Removed sourced material and citations and placed citation needed tags in their place without explanation under the edit summary "better source, reliable source tags where needed"

[58] - Removed mention of violence by Muslim Rohingyas with the edit summary "facebook not a reliable source"; The material was cited to the India Today newspaper, not Facebook.

[59] Deleted mention of a radical organisation that targeted atheists (well sourced) as "trimed out the unrelated part". Also removed a statement regarding radicals cited to a spanish website under "no spanish links for inline citations".

The above is limited to what I could find easily; There are over a thousand edits in the two months since they joined. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Blatant POV pushing. Pretty obviously they're not a new editor. Their edits should be carefully reviewed (and probably mostly reverted). --Cavarrone 07:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Since they seem to have caught a case of ANI flu, I have gone ahead and put a noarchive template for seven days. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 05:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding the repeated attempts by User:Portwoman to add defamatory claims about the son of a politician at Bandi Sanjay Kumar, from 22 - 23 July. Highlights:

[60], adds a subsection titled "Criminal activities", claiming multiple attacks on multiple students by the son

[61] reverts my move of this section about his family to the end, placing it up between the Early life and Career sections

[62], slaps an edit-warring warning on my talk page with Twinkle

[63], pads the section out with vague allegations about the subject of the article

[64], reverts my correction from references that the charges were about a single attack against a single student, with the edit summary "restored content"

[65], attempts for the second time to semi-protect the article.

The rather WP:UNDUE section about Kumar's son being charged (but not prosecuted) for a fight at college remains up near the top of the article. It's been a busy month for me on that article, having up to now been busy reverting attempts by IPs and a SPA to whitewash Kumar's involvement in a scandal. 2A00:23EE:16A8:C58:6836:22FF:FE30:62BD (talk) 05:35, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Brainzones

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Brainzones (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made less than 100 edits since they began editing back in February. The vast majority of their edits have been reverted, because they were incompetent, such as creating pointless unsourced or poorly sourced one sentence stub forks [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] or they were otherwise disruptive. They have received numerous warnings on their talkpage over the last few months, which they seem to have not heeded. I think some kind of action is necessary here. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Blocked for 72 hours, if it doesn't work, an indef may be necessary. --qedk (t 愛 c) 13:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

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IP trolling at Talk:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

This troll is ranting at Talk:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk after i denied their edit request denying Armenian genocide [71], [72], [73]. IP refused to drop the stick and kept going even after another editor gave their opinion. Now they are edit-warring on the talk page and remove my comment [74], [75], [76]. Definitely not here to build an encyclopedia troll.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I read the talk page discussion and blocked 24 hours, as they have yet again engaged in forum shopping following a level 4 warning [77]. If perhaps my call was too hasty, another admin is free to unblock.

I also remind Wikaviani that referring to someone as a troll can also be considered a personal attack and unnecessarily escalates tensions. ^Complex/_Rational 01:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. However, as to your remark, I would like to remind you that the word troll is clearly mentioned in our guidelines: WP:YMFTT "Any user who deliberately attempts to damage Wikipedia is a vandal. A vandal who intentionally makes non-constructive edits with the goal of provoking an angry reaction from other users is a troll." That's exactly what we have here, an editor reverting others comments and making personal interpretaion about a fellow editor being "shocked" to learn the truth about Armenian genocide. How would you call such an editor ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• I did it and I'm sorry! I introduced the word, troll, into the discussion in direct reference to YMFTT. Wikavania simply riffed off my own error. I will refrain from doing so in future... but I am also interested in the answer to the other editor's question: What are we supposed to call the really-not-a-troll-at-all NOTHEREs? Cheers, Last1in (talk) 01:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• I generally find it unhelpful to call another editor something, especially when directed at them – per WP:NPA: Comment on content, not on the contributor. Of course, that doesn't change the tendentious, disruptive, vandalistic nature of their edits, so I would instead direct my attention to the issue at hand. It merely is more conducive to discussion – at least, when the other party is receptive and not editing others' comments. ^Complex/_Rational 02:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  I get you, but as you've seen, the IP edited my comments and even if, calling an editor troll qualifies sometime as a personal attack, it was clearly not the case here. Anyway, thanks for intervening and fixing this. best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:42, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Removing shows from List of Warner Bros. Discovery television programs

This user, Special:Contributions/Vidpro23, keeps removing shows from the List of Warner Bros. Discovery television programs. And here is the proof:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Warner_Bros._Discovery_television_programs&diff=1166566414&oldid=1166338928

Could you please give him a warning about removing shows from that page? AdamDeanHall (talk) 04:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@AdamDeanHall, whenever you report someone to ANI, you should notify them of the discusssion on their talk page. No worries, though, I did it for you, but please do so in the future. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 07:34, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems like they're removing programs that were (and never will be) distributed by WBD because they were clearly made under other ownership such as Discovery and are in library limbo because they were products of their time (i.e. Darcy's Wild Life). It's absurd this 'katamari' article of anything that touches the ownership of WBD exists in the first place and it should clearly be just Warner Bros. Television productions only. I've redirected the section to List of programs broadcast by Discovery Family, and I know nobody who only spends their time editing/warring over these list articles will listen to this at all, but this is a lame report and boy, that empty entire article talk page could do with any kind of discussion before dragging people to ANI needlessly. You know better, Adam, and have been told this so many times, and this edit from @Trivialist: sums up my feelings on this list article. Nate • (chatter) 20:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Toxic IP made an antisemitic remark towards an active editor

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The IP editor 98.113.209.140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has made several unapologetic rude statements towards other editors over the past week (one example seen here), now escalated to antisemitic harassment of Zawed (seen here). The exact remark made by the IP, in the context of discussing the (in)accuracy of Nazi propaganda, was "Are you extremely not neutral, e.g. as Jewish?" The sick insinuation here doesn't need to be spelled out. In the same edit, they were making a curious claim that Nazi propaganda reports are semi-reliable sources. In pushing this point of view, the IP contacted the children of a museum curator, all because a singular claim in the curator's writings was under scrutiny (seen here). It's a really dirty trick to make a menial source dispute that personal. The IP hasn't responded productively to correction (seen here, with "And be my guest and do report me. No problem."). I think Wikipedia would be better without them. Mewnst (talk) 04:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

One week off for the IP, no talk page. Feel free to lengthen if desired, as I’d have indeffed an account for the same edit. Courcelles (talk) 04:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

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User:SmithWAM1 CIR issue

• SmithWAM1 (talk · contribs · logs)

User only adds wikilinks to articles, one or two at a time here and there. Many are useful, some go against the MOS (linking common words and country names), and a few are just linking to the wrong article entirely (an organisation or person with the same name, but not the one being written about). The user appears to be using the visual editor and selecting the top suggested wikilink without checking it.

They've received a page of escalating talk page warnings about these two issues, and have given a few one-word "noted" responses to these.

Today they've added a wrong link to a sports article (saying that the British boxer Joe Hughes, born 1990, played for a 1950s Australian rules football club) and a biography (saying that an Australian settler died in a hospital in New York), and wikilinked "Australia". It's looking like they don't actually understand the advice that they're being given. Belbury (talk) 08:15, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on US geography, but I'm surprised to learn that Virginia State Route 132 crosses Queen Creek, Arizona on its way from James City County, Virginia to York County, Virginia. Seems like a bit of a roundabout route to take. Girth Summit _(blether) 09:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

That detour would add about 68 hours to your drive time, Girth Summit, not counting sleep and meal breaks. Cullen328 (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

They've continued adding wikilinks, despite being notified of this thread by template, and by manual invitation, so I have indef blocked from article space. Anyone feel free to unblock if they undertake to actually check where their links are going before adding them. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:32, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Girth Summit good block. Thanks. Let's see if they start using talk pages. Doug Weller talk 12:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I've been browsing their recent (unreverted) contribs, and found this. The sources says this: The story was told to Caro by Sidney M. Shapiro, a close Moses associate and former chief engineer and general manager of the Long Island State Park Commission. The article they linked to is about Sidney Shapiro, the American-born Chinese actor, lawyer, translator, and writer who lived in China from 1947 to 2014. Hard to imagine they're the same person. These all look like innocent mistakes, but making the same kind of innocent mistake over and over just isn't on. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

And this, confusing a Canadian American football coach with a Jamaican soccer coach. I think there's going to be a lot of cleanup required. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Might this be another case of AI-assisted or AI-generated nonsense? Sounds like it -- I don't see how a human could come up with some of these.

If AI-bots really do take over from humans, it sadly looks so far as if they're going to be just as stupid.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

No, apparently it's something the Visual Editor does, proposes links that you might like to insert, but it's just connecting words to article titles. I've never used Visual editor, I'm just picking that up from some of the correspondence on the user's talk page, but it sounds believable. My favorite one was this (ping to EEng, who might be able to think of something witty to say about it).

I genuinely think that SmithWAM1 was trying to help by implementing the suggestions, and in a sense it's not their fault that they were rubbish suggestions. It is their fault, however, that they kept doing it after multiple people asked them to stop. Lots of their edits had already been reverted; I went through earlier today and reverted about ten more. Overall, I reckon that about 25% of their edits were fat-out wrong, 50% were unnecessary overlinking, and about 25% were improvements. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Urgh, bothched the ping to EEng. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Botched the spelling of botched, too. EEng 17:52, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

In a thread about CIR too. Oh, the irony. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:58, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

See WP:ONEGOODGOOFDESERVESANOTHER. EEng 18:13, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I have to say, faulting Herodotus for overlooking a 20th-century American race massacre beats my previous favorite, placing Harvard in England [78]. EEng 18:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

User:(Un)Lucky Duke permission gaming the system

(Un)Lucky Duke (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

As per their contributions logs, (Un)Lucky Duke has been WP:PGAME the system by making dummy edits (by adding 1) on their userpage in order to bypass the semi-protected restriction placed on Barbie (film) and in turn making disruptive edits with page breaking (rendering issues) changes, this behaviour is certainly unacceptable, and who knows if they would game EC permission. As per WP:GAMING, "A warning from an administrator is usually the best way to prevent gaming" hence any administrator issue them one. Thanks! — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Well, I was going to pblock them from the article, but User:BusterD has upped the protection to ECP, so they can't edit it anyway. As an aside, this is a new editor who appears to be very familiar with wikimarkup and policies from the start, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's one of our usual suspects. Black Kite (talk) 12:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
  • The collection of user page edits in order to pass semi-protection is clear gaming. Let's see if they become disruptive somewhere else. BusterD (talk) 12:36, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
• Issued a final warning. --qedk (t 愛 c) 13:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Legal threat

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See here. Capitals00 (talk) 12:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello, it looks like Amitkriit doesn't like the edits on the 2020–2021 China – India skirmishes article, what is the problem then? ToadetteEdit ^(chat)/_(logs) 12:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Unlikely to be a serious threat, but blocked anyway since quite apart from the legal threat they don't appear to be a net positive in any way. Black Kite (talk) 12:50, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

  Worth pointing out that they've made two further legal threats on their talk page[79][80] — Czello ^(music) 13:32, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

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James1221911

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• James1221911 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

James1221911 appears to have WP:CIVIL problems. Yesterday, I reverted them for adding unsourced genres on Together in Electric Dreams. They re-added them earlier, so I removed them again and warned them on their talk page. That set them off. They proceeded to revert three of my edits: one for removing WP:NOTRSMUSIC sources ([81]), one for heeding template instructions ([82]), and one for archiving dead links that they "claimed" I had added uncited information about ([83]). That last one doesn't even make sense. Considering they delete their talk page messages (which you should definitely have a look at [84]), it looks like they follow their own rules and won't listen to reason, telling us more often that not to "go outside". Something should be done. ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 14:10, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 18:43, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

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Let'srun's beauty pageant nominations

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• Let'srun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Let'srun has opened 21 different AfD's involving beauty pageant contestants in the last 6 days (July 21-27). This can be seen here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Beauty_Pageants/Article_alerts#AfD. And this is just what happened this week. We may be up to 21 more by next week.

As someone who is interested in these articles, these nominations are happening too fast. I cannot look at all of these articles this quickly and I don't really think it's fair to ask someone like myself to spend hours looking to see if these people are indeed notable or not. It's too much at one time, I'm skeptical of some of the nominations and it just feels like these risk being brute force deleted.

I think limiting these to 2-3 at a time (as in until the decision is made) would do everyone a lot of good - it would lead to more participation in AfD debates and it would allow more time to see if these articles are indeed notable. The user has already been warned about this as well by Liz at User_talk:Let'srun#AFDs on another topic.

ThanksKatoKungLee (talk) 15:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems an awful lot like you're trying to portray Let'srun as being on thin ice regarding their frequent AfD submissions. In the past three weeks, Liz has made three comments regarding this topic on Let'srun's talk page, however in no way do I believe these can be interpreted as warnings. On the contrary, I would argue Liz seems appreciative of their involvement and is handing out some friendly advice as well as asking them to perhaps dial it back a notch to make sure their submissions are correct and to prevent too much of a backlog.

Also, if you feel like things are moving too quickly, now would be the time to request these articles be moved to draft space. Alternatively, you could copy them to your sandbox while you still have the chance. Jay D. Easy (t) 18:36, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I am willing to limit to 2 every other day going forward. Let'srun (talk) 15:58, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• That sounds fair. I don't think your nominations are a problem - I looked at five AfDs at random and every single one seemed plainly non-notable - but we do need to think about throughput at AfD. Black Kite (talk) 18:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sounds like a reasonable compromise. Beauty pageants are definitely an area where we've had a lot of spam/promotion/fandom/UPE over the years, and indeed the current noms with participation are mostly headed delete, but nominating lots of articles at once always stretches participation thin. We often have articles on the competition in general, each year's competition, and individual competitors who, if they're not notable for anything else, should often just be merged into the article about the competition they won IMO. Several of these articles appear to have no real sourcing in the article, either. If you come across those, another option is just boldly merging/redirecting, too (although you'll get pushback if you do a lot of that, too). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I see no reason to limit someone on AfD nominations as long as there's nothing wrong with them. If they're not notable and seemingly eligible for deletion, why would we restrict it to keep them around longer? Also no one is asking you to spend hours going through to defend them, we're all volunteers here and there are thousands of regular editors. The lack of availability of knowledgeable people should not preclude the nomination of articles for AfD as long as those nominations are not in bad faith or bad for other reasons. If there is a large number of keeps relatively then there may be an issue for discussion, but until that point lets not assume that. Canterbury Tail talk 18:42, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any reason either, but in this case someone interested in beauty pageants has asked for the throughput to be slowed down and the person nominating has agreed. If you like a specific subject being flooded with AfDs can be disruptive especially because making a !keep argument is often more difficult than making a !delete argument (based on my own history at AfD, a good !keep vote often takes more time than a good !delete vote for a borderline topic.) SportingFlyer T·C 18:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I see no reason to limit someone on AfD nominations as long as there's nothing wrong with them - @Canterbury Tail - See WP:MASSNOM. We're at 21 noms right now. To look into all of those would take significant amounts of time and by the time I do, we may be at 50+ noms. Also no one is asking you to spend hours going through to defend them - Again, please see WP:MASSNOM. There's WP:NORUSH here. People shouldn't feel like they have to pick and choose what AfD debates to participate in or only be able to present quick arguments in order to meet AfD closure deadlines. That just encourages WP:GAME. KatoKungLee (talk) 19:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much my comments factor into this discussion but I make quite a lot of comments on editors' talk pages like this, especially encourgaing folks to post deletion notifications on page creator's talk pages, so this was not unusual for me to do. I'm a big promoter of Twinkle. Earlier, I was a little concerned about Let'srun mass-nominations of articles on judges but I'm not an expert on how notability is determined for individuals in that occupation and the volume of nominations concerned me. But we got through that phase a few weeks ago, some articles were Keep, some Redirected, some Deleted. That's over. I still see Let'srun as a relatively new editor so I was trying to provide some guidance which I find more effective than template warnings.

I'm less concerned about nominations for beauty pageant competitors and beauty pageant competitions for a couple of reasons. I think we have more editors involved with editing those subjects than editing about judicial nominees so there is more oversight. Also, to be honest, I think we have a surplus of articles about less-than-notable beauty pageant contestants and think that this area of the project could stand some review. We have a problem tomorrow with a mass-PRODding episode so I'm generally against mass nominations on any subject as it reduces the amount of time interested editors can investigate the articles under deletion consideration. 21 discussions is a lot but we recently had several hundred articles PROD'd in one day so "mass" is a relative amount. I'd just advise Let'srun to parcel out their nominations over time no matter what subject the articles are about. We've had even very experienced editors get in trouble for doing this in the not-so-distant past. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

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80.42.248.94 edit comments and edit warring

User is reverting quite a bit on Dead Internet theory. Their edit summaries contain racial slurs, and they have continued the profanity on User talk:VintageVernacular because they, correctly in my opinion, reverted their edit.

On another note, I don't know how to ask, but could dead internet theory be made semi-protected? I foresee this kind of thing in the future due to the controversial nature of the page. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Blocked, edit summary revdel'd. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 17:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I appreciate the prompt fix. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Does the "dead internet theory" mean the rest of you are just bots?

Is 80.42.248.94 the last, beleaguered human?

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 17:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Same solipsism, different day. --Jayron32 17:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The edit summary of undo CIA vandalism indicates that we should keep an eye on this person's edits when their block expires. Cullen328 (talk) 20:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Long-term abuse editors

Socks of Nikita but here it suggests reporting here - Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Nikita

• 12.55.173.214 (talk · contribs)
• Pavementparadise (talk · contribs)
• Southdark (talk · contribs)

Editor has the habit of introducing false information while adding new information or claiming to fix untrue information, which was introduced by another sock of them. E.g. 12.55.173.214 makes an edit - [85], corrected by Southdark - [86], but who then introduced more false information. Here Pavementparadise claims to add new information (actually previously deleted by someone else as unreliable), but introduced false information - [87]. Here 12.55.173.214 claims to fix an error, while adding more false information - [88]. Pavementparadise's edit is also near identical edit with previously blocked editor - [89] Hzh (talk) 18:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring on Portuguese phonology

User:Jonh20991 seems to be a single-purpose account just to edit Portuguese phonology. The editor refuses to engage on the talk page and seems to have a poor command of English (they cannot understand what the source says and keep removing an article part sourced to Cruz-Ferreira, claiming that the source does not say what it actually says). Sol505000 (talk) 19:06, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Greenwashing not here

I believe that a NOTHERE block, or an AP2 topic ban, should be considered for the user Greenwashing. I'm WP:INVOLVED (especially given this response to me) so I won't do it myself. All but five of their edits are to Talk:Joe Biden(three of those five are to their user talk page). Their Biden talk page edits are mostly talking points and misinformation by Biden opponents(1, 2, and especially 3 which was debunked here). I don't believe they are here to collaborate with those interested in the Joe Biden article. 331dot (talk) 19:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I've seen this user pop up on my watchlist feed a lot over the past month or so, and I agree with 331dot. They're mostly engaging in WP:FORUM activities at Talk:Joe Biden. I agree they're not here to build an encyclopedia. — Czello ^(music) 19:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Beat me to it after they suggested you are on drugs. That aside, the continuing efforts to add badly sourced and debunked, negative material to a BLP, even if it is a public figure, is a waste of editor time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:42, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeffed as NOTHERE. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 19:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I nearly started this thread myself. They're definitely NOTHERE, starting with the username, which I believe uses the term greenwashing as a pejorative. Good block. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:12, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I just looked a sample of his comments at Talk:Joe Biden. In the ones I looked at, he criticizes the lack of attention to Biden's gaffes and contrasted that with our treatment of Donald Trump. Again, it was just a sample, but his comments didn't seem more forum-ish than those of some other regular editors -- just more conservative.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 21:19, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I generally agree with this take. Just because they are conservative, doesn't mean they should be blocked. However, they need to have a better grasp of what constitutes a reliable source for the purposes of the encyclopedia and avoid personal attacks. Let'srun (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I just finished reading the exchange at Talk:Joe Biden. Just before getting indefinitely blocked, Greenwashing said another editor should avoid hallucinogenic mushrooms -- Did I miss any other comments like that one? I know Greenwashing took plenty of incoming similar fire as well at Talk:Joe Biden -- I'm glad I wasn't in his shoes.

At Talk:Joe Biden, Greenwashing was pushing for coverage in the Joe Biden article of Biden's gaffes as President. The article mentions Biden's gaffes before he became President but none since.

Greenwashing also wanted coverage of Biden's health. Our article talks about his 1988 brain surgery but nothing about his current health.

These are topics of interest for many people and not just right-wing voters in the United States.

There are reliable, neutral sources that can be used to address these topics in several sentences. This would not have to be as lengthy as Greenwashing expected and certainly not speculative or POV as he seemed to want.

If we avoid any coverage of topics like these and indefinitely ban editors who complain (however unartfully), we just feed the narrative that Wikipedia is biased.

I make these points here not to get that article changed -- this isn't the venue. I'm not even focused on Greenwashing's block. I just want our editors and admins -- especially our Americans -- to think carefully about our long-term reputation for reliability, neutrality and openness. These are all under pressure here.

I'm not sure we're getting it right.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Also @331dot I looked through the diffs, and I noticed that this article that you have quoted actually supports what he said.
The video accurately represented what Biden said. Biden was delivering remarks at the League of Conservation Voters' annual capitol dinner on June 14, the same day the claim started to spread online. We found the quote in the White House transcript of the remarks.

We also found it in a livestream of Biden's remarks posted on YouTube by PBS NewsHour, starting at 12:41 in the video:
IMO looks more like an editor who is going about edits in a rather poor manner, than someone trying to be disruptive. A few warnings or a short term block for incivility might have been instructive in that regard.

Definitely uncivil, though an indef for that seems excessive to me. But I'll leave that to judgement of more experienced editors. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

(comment in non-admin capacity) Not that the personal attack was okay, but it pales in comparison to the glaring BLP violation about Hillary Clinton in the same diff. An indef was the right call here. Indefinite does not mean infinite, and if they show they understand both WP:NPA and WP:BLP, an unblock can be considered. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 06:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Captain Jack Sparrow I'm aware that those words came out of Biden's mouth, but as the Snopes piece describes he was not referring to a project to build a railroad across an ocean, but to an ocean. Biden has long had a reputation as being gaffe-prone at least partially because of his stutter. There are places to write about every gaffe that Biden makes, but that's not what we do here. 331dot (talk) 07:00, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

A. B. No, Greenwashing did not want to collaborate about posting information related to Biden's health, they wanted to post typical anti-Biden talking points that he has cognitive issues- comments made by political opponents who have not examined Biden and thus do not meet policy with regards to medical matters. ([90]) They also have showed no interest in collaboration about how Biden's gaffes should be discussed, just an interest in posting every terrible thing Biden says or does or is allegedly responsible for even when he isn't([91]). There are places to post anti-Biden messages, but not on the article talk page of a Wikipedia article. They have never proposed an actual edit to make. 331dot (talk) 07:11, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Chauvinist

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Unbrokenlink6 (talk · contribs)

I’m quite surprised that this Pro-Russian chauvinist hasn’t been noticed yet. This user has constantly removing anything that has anything pertaining to Ukraine and says “fixed error” when he’s not just degrading the articles, just go ahead and see his contributions: this user is clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia. Raulois (talk) 20:15, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

They need to be notified on their talk page of this. Closhund (talk) 20:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Raulois (talk) 20:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Okiyo9228, you need to provide specific evidence, preferably in the form of diffs. Cullen328 (talk) 22:14, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Few examples: One, two, three Raulois (talk) 23:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The reason they have not been caught as yet is that they have made all of a few dozen edits, all of them over the last few years. That said, I have reviewed a couple dozen of those edits, and Okiyo9228 seems to be correct: there is a concerted pro-Russian boosterism and/or de-emphasis of Ukrainian heritage in historical figures going on in virtually every single edit. It's possible (though I doubt it, from what I've seen) that some of these changes might be debatable under sourcing, but there is generally no effort at having such a discussion (even to the extent of justifying the changes in edit summaries): usually a Russian/Soviet-Ukrainian figure's association with Ukraine is simply excised, without discussion, almost without exception using the misleading "fixed error" edit summary, which are the only two words in 95% of their edits (sometimes the even more misleading "fixed spelling" when there are no spelling changes).

Where Russian (or Soviet) and Ukrainian heritage/extraction is mentioned, only the Russian or Soviet link is left, and the Ukrainian removed: [92]. If only a Ukrainian descriptor was present, it is simply changed to reflect Russian heritage instead: [93], [94]. Sometimes merely the descriptions are swapped, but just as often perfectly valid-looking RS are simply removed along with any Ukrainian-leaning language--see here where all reference to Lenin's multiraciality was removed from their biography. With regard to Ukrainians in particular, there is a consistent effort to remove their presence from Russian state affairs and the record of the intelligentsia, and no edit is too trivial to twist this de-emphasis a little farther: [95]. They even reversed the order nationalities when discussing the culinary dish Chicken Kiev to de-emphasize the Ukrainian connection: [96]. Yes, that's right, Chicken Kiev.

However, most edits are not so subtle or related to superficial matters, and in fact some of them are quite outlandishly bold (and even page-breaking), as when they blanked all the of the above the line content for Rape during the liberation of Serbia: [97] (under the edit summary "averted vandalism" no less...). They also get in on removing content regarding present day Russian conflicts: [98], [99].

It seems efforts have been made to engage with this editor on their talk page, but with no response. In fact, the only occasion I've seen them participate in a discussion, in reviewing their edits, was where they argued that Mstislav Rostropovich was not Jewish: [100], which was their very first edit. When they were pushed back on that on the talk page, they nevertheless removed the reference to Jewish heritage, along with the source: [101]. That change is still live in the article, btw and should probably be changed back or at least reviewed.

So, yeah, I would say pretty clearly WP:NOTHERE. Speaking as one editor, I would not be opposed to an indef here until they can provide assurances they are going to learn and apply policy, though I don't see it actually happening, given their apparent motives. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 01:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, some of that is essentially vandalism [102] or edits that serve literally no point other than "Russia > Ukraine" [103]. Indeffed as NOTHERE/TE. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 06:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Pauseypaul

Pauseypaul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Let's begin this by saying that I do not like to bring this to ANI, I think ANI damages editing relations, but I have been personally threatened for absolutely nothing and it's been continuous. I have no idea why. It's an unusual case, in that there is no content dispute and I did not even address Pauseypaul before they began attacking me. For this reason (and I'm sorry for the length), I'm including the entire series of events.

On Talk:2023 FIFA Women's World Cup, a new user asked that footnotes be removed from results tables so that they could automatically scrape results. This isn't something we should do, but Pauseypaul did so. This isn't the issue. I'll continue, with every single edit, by providing diffs first:

1. [104] – Pauseypaul, after removing footnotes, opens a new talkpage section saying that they have done so. I include this edit in light of their subsequent behaviour; they are already showing a negative attitude and accusing editors of "cherrypicking" by the existence of the notes. The explanation suggests that they have retained the information in a nearby location and done this to match an editing guideline.
2. [105] – Pauseypaul responds to the new user, exhibiting similar negativity about the footnotes
3. [106] – I respond to the new user, telling them that it is unconventional for edits to be made for reasons that do not improve Wikipedia, but (and I quote) It's nice that the edits have been helpful
4. [107] – Pauseypaul replies to my comment, insinuating that I was scorning their editing intentions and was impolite.
5. [108] – Pauseypaul separately (I have only seen this now, I had assumed it was a mistake as part of the previous edit) inserts a long line of '=' above my comment... I politely removed it ([109])
6. [110] – I reply to Pauseypaul, explicitly saying that I did not want to suggest their editing was wrong

And that all seemed like it was over, until another user undid Pauseypaul's removal of the footnotes.

1. [111] – Jkudlick (I will courtesy ping below) criticises Pauseypaul's edit. They are not impolite, but do explicitly tell Pauseypaul that the edit was detrimental to Wikipedia and they oppose the negative language Pauseypaul had used – this is worth noting for later relevance.
2. [112] – I reply to Jkudlick, saying that I had thought Pauseypaul had retained the information but, if not, then I agreed with Jkudlick that removing footnotes for a non-WP reason is wrong. I mention that I had not addressed the negative language because of how Pauseypaul had already responded to me.
3. [113] – Jkudlick replies to me, saying that the footnotes have been restored and they just wanted to tell Pauseypaul not to do it again. Jkudlick, again, is not impolite but is dismissive towards the original new user's request (and therefore Pauseypaul's editing).
4. [114] – Pauseypaul replies to Jkudlick. This is where it gets awful. I have no way to describe this comment and Pauseypaul's future ones but hatred. I have no idea how they can hate me from this sequence of interaction, but it is clear they do.
   The comment begins 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐤 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐬𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐚 𝐜𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐫 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐞𝐱𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧, unlike kingsif... as I have noted, Jkudlick was not impolite but definitely showed less tolerance for Pauseypaul's edit than I did. The use of an unusual typeface reads like a change of tone to make a WP:POINT, not that we need this to confirm since they went out of their way to disparage me for no reason.
   You'll see that the comment is not a thank-you note, it is a laundry list of incredibly false, incredibly serious accusations of wrongdoing on my part. Of particular interest is the accusation that I have been Repeatedly jumping into talk-pages that Pauseypaul is involved in; this is, as I recall, our only interaction and I had been editing at that talkpage long before (which Pauseypaul will later acknowledge) - I assume Pauseypaul meant talkpage discussions, but I would hardly call two "repeatedly".
   They accuse me of not only deliberately misgendering them by using "he", but of doing so to amuse myself; the misgendering was unintentional, and I apologise for doing so. The user does not have pronoun preferences indicated and I should not have assumed a masculine username was indicative of pronouns. I am sorry for this error, as I would never want to misgender someone; I am particularly hurt at the spurious accusations of relishing in such behaviour.
5. [115] – I reply to Pauseypaul, linking to WP:NPA.
6. [116] – Pauseypaul replies to me. This comment starts Pot Kettle., trying to compare our comments and supposedly saying that they think I made personal attacks. Interestingly, Pauseypaul asserts that they have a right to reply, despite 1. me never saying they didn't, and 2. them trying to paint my replies to other users as attacks on themself. They explain that they feel my comments (all three of them) were bullying and that my NPA warning shouts 𝐛𝐮𝐥𝐥𝐲, saying that I [have a habit] of 𝐛𝐮𝐥𝐥𝐲𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐚𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐢𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 them.
   They issue a threat: Please note that I will be making enquiries.
7. [117] – I ping two recently active admins to the discussion. The threat is unacceptable but, as I said, I find ANI a last port of call and there is no actual dispute to resolve. I summarise the situation in the comment.
8. [118] – Victuallers (I will courtesy ping below), one of the admins, comments with a 3O. Unfortunately, Victuallers has (openly) not read all the comments. From their suggestion to edit other articles and their understanding that the discussion header ("Discipline", referring to on-pitch discipline, the footnote Pauseypaul had removed) was a request for user discipline, I think Victuallers didn't actually read any of it and assumed it was a content dispute. I mention this for context.
9. [119] – I reply to Victuallers, noting the mistake. I also note that I have not given a reply to Pauseypaul except to ask them to stop casting aspersions. As you can see, this is true.
10. [120] – Pauseypaul replies to me. They accuse me of "starting it", they mock my attempt at 3O resolution, and they mock my moderation efforts at the talkpage (closing random discussions with WP:NOTAFORUM tags... and therefore simultaneously acknowledging that they know I have been trying to helpfully contribute to random questions at the talkpage for a while. And yet, for no clear reason, they took great offense at me doing the same when they had already replied to a question.

As I said, I have no way to describe Pauseypaul's behaviour except hate. It's a mixture of assuming bad faith from the start and making particularly awful personal attacks towards me because, as they seemed to explain themselves, they think I bullied them. Despite the fact they began the string of hostility before I ever replied to them.

I am sure ANI regulars won't strain to recall this discussion from a few weeks ago; remembering to uphold my own personal standards of polite communication is something very present in my mind at the moment so, truly, if I believed I had been even a bit impolite I would have apologised and tried to resolve the situation. Though Pauseypaul clearly thinks otherwise, I do not see this.

Given that Pauseypaul responded unkindly to me reminding them about NPA, though they did not seem to disagree they had been doing so, I think a more formal warning regarding this may be helpful. (Courtesy pings for @Jkudlick and Victuallers: I do not think they need to contribute, but as their edits have been discussed, they may.) Kingsif (talk) 22:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

In notifying Pauseypaul, I see that we have interacted before: User_talk:Pauseypaul#Players_clubs_"as_of" - in January I left them a long message explaining why I had reverted some of their edits after they had similarly assumed bad faith on my part and mocked my editing. I don't know where the attitude came from there, either, or if they remember that and have held a grudge. Of course, if they did remember it, that's a long friendly message to try and prevent an edit dispute; I think I have actually been more polite than warranted every time I've interacted with Pauseypaul. Kingsif (talk) 22:28, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Recent Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/intervention that Kingsif has been involved in contra to their comment that they don’t like to involve administrators, but in my opinion Kingsif knows how to play the system. And is doing so here.

27 July 2023 – User:Pauseypaul

25 July 2023 – User:Frenchl

25 July 2023 – Civility restriction User:HiLo48

23 July 2023 – User:Frenchl

22 July 2023 – User:Frenchl

21 July 2023 – Reporting user TheMNLRockstar

21 July 2023 – User:Frenchl x2

21 July 2023 – Possibly Confused Comments x4

20 July 2023 – Edit warring ‎User:Kingsif reported by User:Sportsfan 1234 (Result: No violation)

19 July 2023 – Personal attacks by User:Kingsif

18 July 2023 – Personal attacks by User:Kingsif x2

7 July 2023 – Vandalism User-reported: franco fanboy

Note: I could keep scrolling but to be perfectly honest I can’t be bothered and there is woman’s world cup football to catch up on.

OK, reading down the ‘complaint from Kingsif’ Not sure why Kingsif noted that Tombuckley1984 is a new Wikipedia user asking for help, do Wikipedia editors only help old users?

– Is there anyway of ensuring only numbers in the points column for teams. I am using the wikipedia pages for my work fantasy league and google sheets can't transform the data. It would really help me out and make the content more accessible. –

– The clutter has been removed –

– I have removed the untidy and cluttered notes and numbers added to the standing box for Group B. Each Group has their own page with a Discipline box at the bottom for Fair play points and notes. Which are there to help easy understanding of Group stage tiebreakers. –

– It is unhelpful if editors cherry pick one match and is inconsistent with present editing guides after the 2022 FIFA World Cup. –

1. What on earth does this mean?

they are already showing a negative attitude and accusing editors of "cherrypicking" by the existence of the notes.

The explanation suggests that they have retained the information in a nearby location and done this to match an editing guideline.

An editor added notes on one match (i.e. cherry-picking) out of the four that had been played at the time.

B 20 July Australia 1[10] Republic of Ireland 0[22] ITV

B 21 July Nigeria 0[40]v Canada 0[7] BBC 0-0 Draw

A 21 July Philippines[46] v Switzerland 2[20] ITV

C 21 July Spain 3[6] v Costa Rica 0[36] BBC

How does this suggest retaining information in a nearby location. What on earth does this mean? What nearby location? I don’t understand what Kingsif is attempting to suggest here. I simply went to the 2022 World cup page checked if it had numbers in the standing box, it did not, so I took that as my guide. Nothing nefarious.

2.

Pauseypaul responds to the new user, exhibiting similar negativity about the footnotes

Untrue and the perceived negativity is clearly in Kingsif vivid imagination along with the imaginary nearby location from 1.

My actual reply was simply. – The clutter has been removed – How is that exhibiting negativity? It’s simple and polite.

2.

Hi, Tom, this has been removed, but because a recent editing guide recommends so (see below); I feel the need to point out that it's not so (in the nicest way) one guy can scrape information a bit more easily. It's nice that the edits have been helpful to everyone here, but these sorts of requests will typically get you nowhere. Kingsif (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

My Reply

𝐈 𝐟𝐞𝐞𝐥 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐧𝐞𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐩𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 I did indeed remove it for the reason stated below which I am sure the poster is able to read. If "Tom" or any user wishes to scrape information from Wikipedia for their fantasy league that's fine with me & I'm sure "they" are not alone in doing so.

....𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐬𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐫𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐬 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐭𝐲𝐩𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐠𝐞𝐭 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐧𝐨𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 well I find by being polite on wiki goes a long way and as I also found the clutter irritating was Happy to do a simple spot of Summer cleaning. Pauseypaul (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I felt the tone of Kingsif was harsh and picky and to be totally honest it’s not very well written and could imply he had done the edit and was after glory.

Kingsif had no reason to say (this has been removed) as I had already replied in the positive. I have no idea as to the (recent editing guide) that Kingsif is referring to or what the (see below) comment means.

3.

I respond to the new user, telling them that it is unconventional for edits to be made for reasons that do not improve Wikipedia

Kingsif appears confused as to what they just said above, what they said was ( these sorts of requests will typically get you nowhere) which I took to be unhelpful and snippy.

4.

Pauseypaul replies to my comment, insinuating that I was scorning their editing intentions and was impolite.

Again this was my reply

𝐈 𝐟𝐞𝐞𝐥 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐧𝐞𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐩𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 I did indeed remove it for the reason stated below which I am sure the poster is able to read. If "Tom" or any user wishes to scrape information from Wikipedia for their fantasy league that's fine with me & I'm sure "they" are not alone in doing so.

....𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐬𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐫𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐬 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐭𝐲𝐩𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐠𝐞𝐭 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐧𝐨𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 well I find by being polite on wiki goes a long way and as I also found the clutter irritating was Happy to do a simple spot of Summer cleaning. Pauseypaul (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

No replies have been deleted is there a Narnia in the back of their computer because it’s still just the same reply.

5.

Golly gosh I added === so I could separate The Edit to copy to an Email and did not remove it. That’s going to get me sent straight to azkaban prison and the death eaters suck out my very soul! Yes clearly a Wikipedia bannable offence that Kingsif feels is vitally important to bring to the attention of Wikipedia Administrators.

6.

I reply to Pauseypaul, explicitly saying that I did not want to suggest their editing was wrong

– I don't know why you're taking an attitude, nowhere did I say or even suggest it was wrong - it just rarely happens that "change formatting for non-WP reason" is accepted and Tom shouldn't expect it happen again based on it being done now. Kingsif (talk) 01:12, 22 July 2023 –

Semantics I felt Kingsif was just playing with words and did not bother replying as they clearly were edging for some-sort of verbal conflict.

Another 1.

Jkudlick (I will courtesy ping below) criticises Pauseypaul's edit. They are not impolite, but do explicitly tell Pauseypaul that the edit was detrimental to Wikipedia and they oppose the negative language Pauseypaul had used – this is worth noting for later relevance.

This is what Jkudlick in-fact said

– Those "untidy" notes are useful for understanding at a glance why one team is placed higher than another if they have the same number of points, goals against, and goals scored. There is no reason to remove that information until it is no longer relevant; in the case of Group B, it was necessary to indicate on the table why Canada was placed ahead of Nigeria. These tables are transcluded in multiple articles, and the whole point of Wikipedia is to make it easier to share information; requiring someone to search amongst multiple articles to find this out is the antithesis of that. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 18:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC) –

I did not perceive this reply from Jkudlick as criticism, which Kingsif is desperately trying to claim it is. I found the explanation very helpful and polite, especially this bit ( in the case of Group B, it was necessary to indicate on the table why Canada was placed ahead of Nigeria.) Again I can’t see any suggestion in the above any mention of negative language from myself being remarked on by Jkudlick. Kingsif is again trying very hard but I don’t feel Jkudlick comment was anything other than helpful.

Another 2.

I reply to Jkudlick, saying that I had thought Pauseypaul had retained the information but, if not, then I agreed with Jkudlick that removing footnotes for a non-WP reason is wrong. I mention that I had not addressed the negative language because of how Pauseypaul had already responded to me.

This was Kingif actual reply

– Wait, I thought Paul just moved the information below the table, that's what he made it sound like?

I didn't myself say anything about his strange reference to cherry-picking matches based on his response to my comment in the section above, but this indicates he doesn't understand the purpose so I would hope he didn't just remove information he doesn't understand. Yes, if he didn't keep the information accessible that's not okay - especially if he did so just so one guy can scrape information a bit more easily - making Wikipedia content worse for a non-Wikipedia reason, not understanding that's what you're doing, and having an attitude about it is all not okay. Kingsif (talk) –

Just I feel a lot of waffle from kingsif trying to make themselves justified, shrugs. I do note I have been gendered to Paul from my user-name of Pauseypaul and numerous male inflections, my father may he rest in piece will be pleased he always wanted a son, but alas I have no intention of transitioning any time in the near future!

Still not sure what or where this (retained the information) is that Kingsif is talking about, shrugs. Again implying I have an attitude which I think is in-fact the other way around.

Another 3.

Jkudlick replies to me, saying that the footnotes have been restored and they just wanted to tell Pauseypaul not to do it again. Jkudlick, again, is not impolite but is dismissive towards the original new user's request (and therefore Pauseypaul's editing).

This was Jkudlick actual reply

– The information was actually removed from the Group B table in the template, but was later restored. It's not our problem that someone can't be bothered to type the data themselves for an off-Wikipedia purpose rather than scrape it. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC) –

As you can clearly read Jkudlick made no mention of me Pauseypaul at all in their reply it is all in kingsif imagination. Kingsif is desperate for someone to back them up it’s quite strange.

Another 4.

Pauseypaul replies to Jkudlick. This is where it gets awful. I have no way to describe this comment and Pauseypaul's future ones but hatred. I have no idea how they can hate me from this sequence of interaction, but it is clear they do.

The comment begins 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐤 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐬𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐚 𝐜𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐫 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐞𝐱𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧, unlike kingsif... as I have noted, Jkudlick was not impolite but definitely showed less tolerance for Pauseypaul's edit than I did. The use of an unusual typeface reads like a change of tone to make a WP:POINT, not that we need this to confirm since they went out of their way to disparage me for no reason.

You'll see that the comment is not a thank-you note, it is a laundry list of incredibly false, incredibly serious accusations of wrongdoing on my part. Of particular interest is the accusation that I have been Repeatedly jumping into talk-pages that Pauseypaul is involved in; this is, as I recall, our only interaction and I had been editing at that talkpage long before (which Pauseypaul will later acknowledge) - I assume Pauseypaul meant talkpage discussions, but I would hardly call two "repeatedly".

They accuse me of not only deliberately misgendering them by using "he", but of doing so to amuse myself; the misgendering was unintentional, and I apologise for doing so. The user does not have pronoun preferences indicated and I should not have assumed a masculine username was indicative of pronouns. I am sorry for this error, as I would never want to misgender someone; I am particularly hurt at the spurious accusations of relishing in such behaviour.

This is now getting very very strange, this is what I actually replied to Jkudlick

– 𝐂𝐚𝐧 𝐈 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐤 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐬𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐚 𝐜𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐫 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐞𝐱𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧, unlike kingsif. Who amuses themselves by repeatedly miss-gendering me nine times in their comment below. Repeatedly jumping into talk-pages I have politely engaged in and attempting to disparage and belittle me which is sad and rather unbecoming of a professional Wikipedian with 50k+ edits under this name. Pauseypaul (talk) 00:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC) –

I can not see any hate in my comment, just a thank you to Jkudlick. And noting the miss-gendering.

This is an absolute load of twaddle from Kingsif (Jkudlick was not impolite but definitely showed less tolerance for Pauseypaul's edit than I did.)

I felt that Jkudlick was polite and helpful no idea what or why Kingsif is trying to say about Jkudlick was acting with (less tolerance) I feel Kingsif is just trying to stir a pot of bother.

Nope not seeing a problem with a bold typeface, I have not used capitals which would be shouting and I had already used it above, as green is strange when your blind to that spectrum of colour. This whole comment from Kingsif is full their ( assuming and imagination ) They have in-fact been on my personal talk page twice before the 2023 Woman’s World cup and jumped into others.

Why is Kingsif apologising to the Administrators' noticeboard for miss-gendering me, surely that should be directed at myself! As for (spurious accusations) nine times is not accidental. This imaginary hurt of kingsif is making my eyes bleed, what a load of Ratners.

Another 5.

OK yep.

Another 6.

– Pauseypaul replies to me. This comment starts Pot Kettle., trying to compare our comments and supposedly saying that they think I made personal attacks. Interestingly, Pauseypaul asserts that they have a right to reply, despite 1. me never saying they didn't, and 2. them trying to paint my replies to other users as attacks on themself. They explain that they feel my comments (all three of them) were bullying and that my NPA warning shouts 𝐛𝐮𝐥𝐥𝐲, saying that I [have a habit] of 𝐛𝐮𝐥𝐥𝐲𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐚𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐢𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 them.

They issue a threat: Please note that I will be making enquiries. –

This really is like watching a child fall to pieces in the playground, I am amazed what on earth is wrong with my seeking to make enquiries, unlike Kingsif the professional Wikipedian with 50k+ plus edits under their belt, I have no idea of the procedure so made enquiries… how on this soggy day is that a Threat? It’s turning into a strange farce.

Another 7.

Kingsif pings two admins because of the nasty horrid threat, gosh, I’m sorry I’m laughing here.

Another 8.

Makes more assumptions about the admin that replied.

Basically Kingsif was unhappy an admin did not side with them and was unwilling to wait for the other to reply in their favour, threw their toys out a window and started a wasteful time-consuming Administrators' noticeboard complaint.

Basically I have made no threat and any hurt is purely in their mind. Maybe lack of sleep from a little to much early morning television football viewing who knows. But they do love making up Ratners and bending the truth maybe in RL they are a fiction writer LOL.

Asking for a warning to be slapped on myself is a Joke! Pauseypaul (talk) 05:23, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

This is the same reply but with pipes added, hatting to reduce the size of the thread, there's no reason someone would need to read the same reply twice. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 10:25, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
With Gaps for an easier read hope so Recent Wikipedia Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/intervention that Kingsif has been involved in contra to their comment that they don’t like to involve administrators, but in my opinion Kingsif knows how to play the system. And is doing so here. | | 27 July 2023 – User:Pauseypaul 25 July 2023 – User:Frenchl 25 July 2023 – Civility restriction User:HiLo48 23 July 2023 – User:Frenchl 22 July 2023 – User:Frenchl 21 July 2023 – Reporting user TheMNLRockstar 21 July 2023 – User:Frenchl x2 21 July 2023 – Possibly Confused Comments x4 20 July 2023 – Edit warring ‎User:Kingsif reported by User:Sportsfan 1234 (Result: No violation) 19 July 2023 – Personal attacks by User:Kingsif 18 July 2023 – Personal attacks by User:Kingsif x2 7 July 2023 – Vandalism User-reported: franco fanboy Note: I could keep scrolling but to be perfectly honest I can’t be bothered and there is woman’s world cup football to catch up on. | | OK, reading down the ‘complaint from Kingsif’ Not sure why Kingsif noted that Tombuckley1984 is a new Wikipedia user asking for help, do Wikipedia editors only help old users? | | – Is there anyway of ensuring only numbers in the points column for teams. I am using the wikipedia pages for my work fantasy league and google sheets can't transform the data. It would really help me out and make the content more accessible. – | | – The clutter has been removed – | | – I have removed the untidy and cluttered notes and numbers added to the standing box for Group B. Each Group has their own page with a Discipline box at the bottom for Fair play points and notes. Which are there to help easy understanding of Group stage tiebreakers. – | | – It is unhelpful if editors cherry pick one match and is inconsistent with present editing guides after the 2022 FIFA World Cup. – | | 1. What on earth does this mean? they are already showing a negative attitude and accusing editors of "cherrypicking" by the existence of the notes. The explanation suggests that they have retained the information in a nearby location and done this to match an editing guideline. An editor added notes on one match (i.e. cherry-picking) out of the four that had been played at the time. | | B 20 July Australia 1[10] Republic of Ireland 0[22] ITV B 21 July Nigeria 0[40]v Canada 0[7] BBC 0-0 Draw A 21 July Philippines[46] v Switzerland 2[20] ITV C 21 July Spain 3[6] v Costa Rica 0[36] BBC | | How does this suggest retaining information in a nearby location. What on earth does this mean? What nearby location? I don’t understand what Kingsif is attempting to suggest here. I simply went to the 2022 World cup page checked if it had numbers in the standing box, it did not, so I took that as my guide. Nothing nefarious. | | 2. Pauseypaul responds to the new user, exhibiting similar negativity about the footnotes Untrue and the perceived negativity is clearly in Kingsif vivid imagination along with the imaginary nearby location from 1. My actual reply was simply. – The clutter has been removed – How is that exhibiting negativity? It’s simple and polite. | | 2. Hi, Tom, this has been removed, but because a recent editing guide recommends so (see below); I feel the need to point out that it's not so (in the nicest way) one guy can scrape information a bit more easily. It's nice that the edits have been helpful to everyone here, but these sorts of requests will typically get you nowhere. Kingsif (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC) | | My Reply 𝐈 𝐟𝐞𝐞𝐥 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐧𝐞𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐩𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 I did indeed remove it for the reason stated below which I am sure the poster is able to read. If "Tom" or any user wishes to scrape information from Wikipedia for their fantasy league that's fine with me & I'm sure "they" are not alone in doing so. ....𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐬𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐫𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐬 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐭𝐲𝐩𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐠𝐞𝐭 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐧𝐨𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 well I find by being polite on wiki goes a long way and as I also found the clutter irritating was Happy to do a simple spot of Summer cleaning. Pauseypaul (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC) | | I felt the tone of Kingsif was harsh and picky and to be totally honest it’s not very well written and could imply he had done the edit and was after glory. Kingsif had no reason to say (this has been removed) as I had already replied in the positive. I have no idea as to the (recent editing guide) that Kingsif is referring to or what the (see below) comment means. | | 3. I respond to the new user, telling them that it is unconventional for edits to be made for reasons that do not improve Wikipedia Kingsif appears confused as to what they just said above, what they said was ( these sorts of requests will typically get you nowhere) which I took to be unhelpful and snippy. | | 4. Pauseypaul replies to my comment, insinuating that I was scorning their editing intentions and was impolite. Again this was my reply 𝐈 𝐟𝐞𝐞𝐥 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐧𝐞𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐩𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 I did indeed remove it for the reason stated below which I am sure the poster is able to read. If "Tom" or any user wishes to scrape information from Wikipedia for their fantasy league that's fine with me & I'm sure "they" are not alone in doing so. ....𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐬𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐫𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐬 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐭𝐲𝐩𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐠𝐞𝐭 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐧𝐨𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 well I find by being polite on wiki goes a long way and as I also found the clutter irritating was Happy to do a simple spot of Summer cleaning. Pauseypaul (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC) No replies have been deleted is there a Narnia in the back of their computer because it’s still just the same reply. | | 5. Golly gosh I added === so I could separate The Edit to copy to an Email and did not remove it. That’s going to get me sent straight to azkaban prison and the death eaters suck out my very soul! Yes clearly a Wikipedia bannable offence that Kingsif feels is vitally important to bring to the attention of Wikipedia Administrators. | | 6. I reply to Pauseypaul, explicitly saying that I did not want to suggest their editing was wrong | | – I don't know why you're taking an attitude, nowhere did I say or even suggest it was wrong - it just rarely happens that "change formatting for non-WP reason" is accepted and Tom shouldn't expect it happen again based on it being done now. Kingsif (talk) 01:12, 22 July 2023 – | | Semantics I felt Kingsif was just playing with words and did not bother replying as they clearly were edging for some-sort of verbal conflict. Another 1. Jkudlick (I will courtesy ping below) criticises Pauseypaul's edit. They are not impolite, but do explicitly tell Pauseypaul that the edit was detrimental to Wikipedia and they oppose the negative language Pauseypaul had used – this is worth noting for later relevance. | | This is what Jkudlick in-fact said – Those "untidy" notes are useful for understanding at a glance why one team is placed higher than another if they have the same number of points, goals against, and goals scored. There is no reason to remove that information until it is no longer relevant; in the case of Group B, it was necessary to indicate on the table why Canada was placed ahead of Nigeria. These tables are transcluded in multiple articles, and the whole point of Wikipedia is to make it easier to share information; requiring someone to search amongst multiple articles to find this out is the antithesis of that. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 18:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC) – | | I did not perceive this reply from Jkudlick as criticism, which Kingsif is desperately trying to claim it is. I found the explanation very helpful and polite, especially this bit ( in the case of Group B, it was necessary to indicate on the table why Canada was placed ahead of Nigeria.) Again I can’t see any suggestion in the above any mention of negative language from myself being remarked on by Jkudlick. Kingsif is again trying very hard but I don’t feel Jkudlick comment was anything other than helpful. | | Another 2. I reply to Jkudlick, saying that I had thought Pauseypaul had retained the information but, if not, then I agreed with Jkudlick that removing footnotes for a non-WP reason is wrong. I mention that I had not addressed the negative language because of how Pauseypaul had already responded to me. | | This was Kingif actual reply | | – Wait, I thought Paul just moved the information below the table, that's what he made it sound like? I didn't myself say anything about his strange reference to cherry-picking matches based on his response to my comment in the section above, but this indicates he doesn't understand the purpose so I would hope he didn't just remove information he doesn't understand. Yes, if he didn't keep the information accessible that's not okay - especially if he did so just so one guy can scrape information a bit more easily - making Wikipedia content worse for a non-Wikipedia reason, not understanding that's what you're doing, and having an attitude about it is all not okay. Kingsif (talk) – | | Just I feel a lot of waffle from kingsif trying to make themselves justified, shrugs. I do note I have been gendered to Paul from my user-name of Pauseypaul and numerous male inflections, my father may he rest in piece will be pleased he always wanted a son, but alas I have no intention of transitioning any time in the near future! | | Still not sure what or where this (retained the information) is that Kingsif is talking about, shrugs. Again implying I have an attitude which I think is in-fact the other way around. | | Another 3. Jkudlick replies to me, saying that the footnotes have been restored and they just wanted to tell Pauseypaul not to do it again. Jkudlick, again, is not impolite but is dismissive towards the original new user's request (and therefore Pauseypaul's editing). | | This was Jkudlick actual reply – The information was actually removed from the Group B table in the template, but was later restored. It's not our problem that someone can't be bothered to type the data themselves for an off-Wikipedia purpose rather than scrape it. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2023 (UTC) – | | As you can clearly read Jkudlick made no mention of me Pauseypaul at all in their reply it is all in kingsif imagination. Kingsif is desperate for someone to back them up it’s quite strange. | | Another 4. Pauseypaul replies to Jkudlick. This is where it gets awful. I have no way to describe this comment and Pauseypaul's future ones but hatred. I have no idea how they can hate me from this sequence of interaction, but it is clear they do. The comment begins 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐤 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐬𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐚 𝐜𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐫 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐞𝐱𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧, unlike kingsif... as I have noted, Jkudlick was not impolite but definitely showed less tolerance for Pauseypaul's edit than I did. The use of an unusual typeface reads like a change of tone to make a WP:POINT, not that we need this to confirm since they went out of their way to disparage me for no reason. You'll see that the comment is not a thank-you note, it is a laundry list of incredibly false, incredibly serious accusations of wrongdoing on my part. Of particular interest is the accusation that I have been Repeatedly jumping into talk-pages that Pauseypaul is involved in; this is, as I recall, our only interaction and I had been editing at that talkpage long before (which Pauseypaul will later acknowledge) - I assume Pauseypaul meant talkpage discussions, but I would hardly call two "repeatedly". They accuse me of not only deliberately misgendering them by using "he", but of doing so to amuse myself; the misgendering was unintentional, and I apologise for doing so. The user does not have pronoun preferences indicated and I should not have assumed a masculine username was indicative of pronouns. I am sorry for this error, as I would never want to misgender someone; I am particularly hurt at the spurious accusations of relishing in such behaviour. | | This is now getting very very strange, this is what I actually replied to Jkudlick – 𝐂𝐚𝐧 𝐈 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐤 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐬𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐚 𝐜𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐫 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐞𝐱𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧, unlike kingsif. Who amuses themselves by repeatedly miss-gendering me nine times in their comment below. Repeatedly jumping into talk-pages I have politely engaged in and attempting to disparage and belittle me which is sad and rather unbecoming of a professional Wikipedian with 50k+ edits under this name. Pauseypaul (talk) 00:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC) – | | I can not see any hate in my comment, just a thank you to Jkudlick. And noting the miss-gendering. | | This is an absolute load of twaddle from Kingsif (Jkudlick was not impolite but definitely showed less tolerance for Pauseypaul's edit than I did.) I felt that Jkudlick was polite and helpful no idea what or why Kingsif is trying to say about Jkudlick was acting with (less tolerance) I feel Kingsif is just trying to stir a pot of bother. | | Nope not seeing a problem with a bold typeface, I have not used capitals which would be shouting and I had already used it above, as green is strange when your blind to that spectrum of colour. This whole comment from Kingsif is full their ( assuming and imagination ) They have in-fact been on my personal talk page twice before the 2023 Woman’s World cup and jumped into others. | | Why is Kingsif apologising to the Administrators' noticeboard for miss-gendering me, surely that should be directed at myself! As for (spurious accusations) nine times is not accidental. This imaginary hurt of kingsif is making my eyes bleed, what a load of Ratners. | | Another 5. OK yep. | | Another 6. – Pauseypaul replies to me. This comment starts Pot Kettle., trying to compare our comments and supposedly saying that they think I made personal attacks. Interestingly, Pauseypaul asserts that they have a right to reply, despite 1. me never saying they didn't, and 2. them trying to paint my replies to other users as attacks on themself. They explain that they feel my comments (all three of them) were bullying and that my NPA warning shouts 𝐛𝐮𝐥𝐥𝐲, saying that I [have a habit] of 𝐛𝐮𝐥𝐥𝐲𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐚𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐢𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 them. They issue a threat: Please note that I will be making enquiries. – | | This really is like watching a child fall to pieces in the playground, I am amazed what on earth is wrong with my seeking to make enquiries, unlike Kingsif the professional Wikipedian with 50k+ plus edits under their belt, I have no idea of the procedure so made enquiries… how on this soggy day is that a Threat? It’s turning into a strange farce. Another 7. Kingsif pings two admins because of the nasty horrid threat, gosh, I’m sorry I’m laughing here. | | Another 8. Makes more assumptions about the admin that replied. Basically Kingsif was unhappy an admin did not side with them and was unwilling to wait for the other to reply in their favour, threw their toys out a window and started a wasteful time-consuming Administrators' noticeboard complaint. | | Basically I have made no threat and any hurt is purely in their mind. Maybe lack of sleep from a little to much early morning television football viewing who knows. But they do love making up Ratners and bending the truth maybe in RL they are a fiction writer LOL. | | Asking for a warning to be slapped on myself is a Joke! Pauseypaul (talk) 06:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Pauseypaul (and to some extent Kingsif) These loooooooooooong paragraphs are unreadable, please provide a TL;DR of about 500 words so its easier get the gist. Include the diffs of disruption/failure to AGF/ whatever you are accusing of, but dont bother rewriting the whole story. Also just write your response in points, no need to copy the other editors words then respond below. @Pauseypaul I would recommend that you delete your second response, and use special formatting (this is using talk quotes) to differentiate quotes from your own response. As of now I doubt anyone can read either of your responses. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 07:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Good freaking grief. It's not so much that no one can read nearly five bloody thousand words -- it's that no one's going to bother. Ravenswing 08:32, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Having read the original complaint and most of PauseyPaul's response I find myself agreeing that Pauseypaul has an issue with civility and personal attacks. Their response to a complaint that they were acting in an uncivil manner contains sentences such as

Untrue and the perceived negativity is clearly in Kingsif vivid imagination along with the imaginary nearby location from 1.

That’s going to get me sent straight to azkaban prison and the death eaters suck out my very soul!

This imaginary hurt of kingsif is making my eyes bleed, what a load of Ratners.

This really is like watching a child fall to pieces in the playground

Kingsif pings two admins because of the nasty horrid threat, gosh, I’m sorry I’m laughing here.

But they do love making up Ratners and bending the truth maybe in RL they are a fiction writer LOL.

Responding to a complaint that you are being uncivil and attacking other editors with incivility and attacks on other editors really is not a good look. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 10:34, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with 163.1.15.238. Pauseypaul's comments about/to Kingsif are unacceptably hostile and she should dial it back; if she can't learn to communicate in a civil manner with all editors, she'll likely end up here again. (edited to add:) I looked through her contributions, and this attitude seems to be solely directed toward Kingsif, I couldn't find similar conduct toward any other editor. She might consider avoiding Kingsif if she can't rein in whatever negative feelings she has toward him. Schazjmd (talk) 14:02, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah! Well! Sadly my attempt at a little humour failed to break past the wall of blatant unscrupulous manipulation and paranoia in kingsif’s rewording of the events, others thoughts and my imagined hate threats upon them.

I shall return my clown-mask with immediate effect, while they practise my 𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐦𝐚𝐧’𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐨𝐬𝐞. I’m sure they will wallow in their lukewarm bath filled with pointless barnstar’s and their complete apathy for the truth.

All this for a -66 in good faith edit that I thought was helping.

Clearly their 𝐛𝐮𝐥𝐥𝐲𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐚𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐢𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 has won you and others approval.

Goodbye, I am just going outside and may be some time.

Pauseypaul (she/her) since 1955 but never a Karen! or a Richard. Pauseypaul (talk) 00:19, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

To be blunt, do you genuinely feel that the best way to address concerns about over-the-top melodramatic/hostile cracks on your part is in doubling down on the melodrama? (Or, for that matter, that a variation on the hoary old "Canchu take a joke?" is better? While we're talking about blatant manipulation.) Ravenswing 16:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

@CapnJackSp and Ravenswing: Could I invite you to read through the threads "[a] after the Nigeria Canada Draw" and "Discipline" at the current version of Talk:2023 FIFA Women's World Cup, simply, then? In short, I politely replied to other users regarding an edit and was faced with Pauseypaul throwing every attack in the book at me.
I had only wanted someone else to remind Pauseypaul of WP:NPA because they responded negatively to me linking it; after seeing their reply above, demonstrating that their attitude is to attack me even further, to apparently try and prove I deserve their hate (rather than, IDK, try not to be hateful), I think something much more serious is needed. The combative attitude and blinkered focus on editors, not edits, is not conducive to Wikipedia. Kingsif (talk) 14:17, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• This is a really stupid dispute based on a small editing mistake that we've wasted far too many words on already, but there's also clearly been incivility here on Pauseypaul's part. Not sure I'd recommend any sanctions but there should be at least some sort of warning. SportingFlyer T·C 13:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Pauseypaul's response here is unreadable and [121] is the kind of comment we as a project can frankly do without. @Pauseypaul: please consider this a warning to not engage in personal attacks; comment on the content and not the contributor. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 16:25, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

User:IAmYourDad2 leaving spam messages on my talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

IAmYourDad2 (talk · contribs)

Hello. The user above left a following series of bizarre, spam and rude messages under false pretenses. Hoping that someone could take action on this. See the following logs:

• [122]
• [123]

Borgenland (talk) 15:04, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

p-blocked from your Talk as a stopgap as I cannot dig through their edits at this time to see if they're otherwise constructive. Star Mississippi 15:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Said user makes a few decent edits but there were issues lately with extensive copyright violations. Check the following on their talk page:

• [124]
• [125]

Borgenland (talk) 15:32, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Is it also possible to have them blocked from my backup account: @Leijona1824? (for transparency this was my first account which I can't log out from one phone since I lost access to the password but still uses it if my other phone and device is out of battery). Borgenland (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Star Mississippi 15:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd be tempted to indef without TPA for this nonsense but assume @Diannaa didn't find enough to block for the copyvio and my reasoning is thin. Star Mississippi 16:00, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

This too. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

That’s a sock. Blocked and tagged. Courcelles (talk) 16:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Courcelles, what about IAmYourDad999?--Bbb23 (talk) 16:14, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Good eye. Blocked and tagged three more. Courcelles (talk) 16:18, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Known Rod

Known Rod (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) A brand new account who knew how to create a userpage and templates immediately and crash landed into AfD with poor !votes. Anyone familiar with The Office socks to know where to file this one? Thanks! Star Mississippi 15:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I was looking at the same thing. Certainly seems unusual. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks like Courcelles blocked them for sockpuppetry. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Courcelles for the clean up. Star Mississippi 15:25, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

That user page was a good indicator that trolling would be forthcoming. Courcelles (talk) 15:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

As they noted in their appeal, the quote that constitutes their user page is, indeed, taken from my user page (although you may not see it if you go there unless you purge a few times, since I randomly display just one of a set of quotes). Although Known Rod only used that single quote, they left it in {{random item}}, indicating that they're not a super-sophisticated wikieditor. I didn't realize there were The Office socks. I'm reminded of the funniest Office scene ever, in which Jim is essentially a sock of Dwight. But I'd better stop talking about The Office, lest suspicions grow.... MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 19:11, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm... SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:18, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd certainly say the user deserved to be blocked, as 99 edits in 5 hours 18 minutes works out to about 3 minutes per edit, which is rather hard to beat without automated scripts. Looking at the contributions it does not seem much effort was made besides Template:In Therapy which the user spent a whopping 22 minutes on.

I don't really know much about this area of Wikipedia, but is it usual for socks to complain that they are not a sock? I wonder if it is worth unblocking them after a week to see if they continue their editing spree or start making useful contributions. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 16:19, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

All. The. Time. Socks always deny being socks. Courcelles (talk) 16:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, it is very common for socks to claim they aren't, when requesting an unblock. It's more common than admitting they are indeed sockpuppet accounts. Of course, sometimes they aren't socks, so this is not entirely unexpected. --Yamla (talk) 16:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

In fact, just about the only instance where they do admit it is when the sockmaster gets blocked, and resorts to talk page taunting about how they're going to keep on socking and no one can stop them, nyah nyah. Ravenswing 12:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I gather from Star's initial comments that we have an LTA who regularly embraces memes associated with The Office? SnowRise ^{let's rap} 16:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I've definitely run into one, but not frequently enough to remember which drawer to put them in. Sometimes I'm not sure if it's literal socking or random fandom boards (generic, not Wiki version) deciding to troll here. Hiatus is going to have way too many bored folks. Star Mississippi 16:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Repeated additions of NPOV-violating content at Joe Biden

@AidanH123: has repeatedly added NPOV-violating editions to the lead of Joe Biden. The same style of edits have been going on for months. July 2023, June 28, 2023, June 14, 2023, June 9, 2023, March 14, 2023, March 6, 2023, March 1, 2023, and February 3, 2023. Myself and other editors have had to remove this content repeatedly. I've visited Aidan's talk page asking him twice to stop adding content without consensus at Talk:Joe Biden. He has not cooperated and refuses to start a discussion in the talk page. If you look at his contribution history you will see this is one of the few things he does on Wikipedia at all. Additionally, he has been warned for NPOV concerns on his talk page by Annh07 for contributions related to Christian Ronaldo. He has not responded to that either.

I'm not one to file many complaints, but I have concerns over pov-pushing and a lack of understanding of behavior norms. And I'm not sure this editor is being successful at building the encyclopedia. Thank you. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 23:11, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks for your report. I've indeffed the user for NOTHERE. Virtually every one of their 561 edits has been reverted or is a personal sandbox edit. It appears the user has been performing nonsense contributions to their sandbox page to gain sufficient edits to pass EC page restrictions. They've been at this game for more than 6 months and I'm not seeing many substantive talk contributions, even to rebut frequent userpage warnings from other editors. I'm not sure why they are here, but it doesn't appear to involve creating an encyclopedia. BusterD (talk) 23:40, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• Iamreallygoodatcheckers: I only looked at the first linked diff.[126] May I ask what is wrong with it, and why it was reverted, and how it violates NPOV? Perhaps, I'm missing something? Viriditas (talk) 00:30, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  There many problems with them that damage the NPOV. For one, he continuously adds content -- such as AKUS and Respect for Marriage Act -- that was removed after discussion in the talk. Furthermore, he introduces content in a tone that is not impartial. It's all POV content characterized in a positive way to Biden. Everytime he does this it disrupts the neutral lead that has been developed through long-term community discussion. On top of that, he refuses to discuss his edits and his long-term edit warring. It's not normal to be dedicating 6 months to adding the exact same content that has been objected to by several different editors. Perhaps it would have been different if he just chose to discuss in the talk page, but that's something he will not do. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 01:11, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  I understand. My initial concern (looking at only the July diff), is that the user was merely adding facts that didn't constitute POV content as far as I can see. Hopefully, others will take a look and chime in. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

User Singh62002 Refusing to go to the talk page, and disruptive editing. Page: List of battles involving the Sikh Empire

So user Singh62002 has been in a content dispute. They were attempting to change the First Anglo-Afghan War summary on the page of the list of battles to a "Coalition victory", despite it being very well, and as shown on the First Anglo-Afghan War page itself, an Afghan victory. I attempted to go to the talk page after realizing this will just result in an edit war.

After opening a talk page discussion, they refuse to go there and have since reverted the edit again as seen here in this diff: [127]

I believe it is starting to become disruptive editing on their behalf especially without discussing it, only throwing in their response in the edit summary section rather on the talk page.

This user has also been previously warned by another administrator for doing the edits as shown in this diff here: [128] The template advises them to go to the talk page to discuss their edits, yet they seem to refuse to. Noorullah (talk) 01:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I warned them of the ANI notice in this diff. [129]

The administrator that initially warned them was @Johnuniq. Noorullah (talk) 01:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I issued a partial block to prevent Singh62002 (talk · contribs) from editing articles. They have only ever edited articles and have no talk page contributions. That is not sustainable when disagreements occur. Johnuniq (talk) 02:19, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

IPv6 Editor Submitting Hoax Drafts and Making Unverified Edits

• 2804:3FA8:9B00:26B7:6C33:B49D:88FB:6306 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

This IPv6 submitted the following one-sentence drafts with no references:

• Draft:China Daylight Time
• Draft:Japan Daylight Time
• Draft:Korea Daylight Time
• Draft:Hong Kong Summer Time

These drafts all made statements about daylight time that were both unreferenced and untrue, and so I have tagged them as hoaxes. The IP also made edits about time in Australia that have been reverted by User:Kiwipete (thanks KP).

I haven't had time to check some of their other edits, but they are probably all vandalism. A range block is in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:23, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Robert McClenon, yes, one of these edits first came to my notice on the Special:PendingChanges page. I then investigated the other edits from the same IP address, and reverted all the other ones as well. However, there are now more new edits which I have also reverted - I just hope I'm not at risk of WP:3RR, can you please advise? I also noted your feedback on the draft articles created by this IP address, all of which have been rejected, and largely for the same reasons I stated - lack of reliable sources. Are there further steps which could/should now be taken? Thanks for your help, Kiwipete (talk) 02:31, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Kiwipete - One of the exceptions to WP:3RR is reverting blatant vandalism, and it is my opinion that these edits are vandalism, which is why the range needs to be blocked. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that.

On 22 July 2023, there was a spree of draft creations from

• 187.36.170.206 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) ,

some of which are being edited now by the 2804 vandal. They are probably the same person. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right, Robert McClenon. There seems to be a fairly large overlap in the names of draft articles created. Kiwipete (talk) 02:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Editor frequently misuses ROLLBACK to undo good faith edits.

Editor (not administrator as previously stated) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TrangaBellam frequently misuses rollback (edit: and restore to previous version) in this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengol (and also this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kup, and possibly others)

See rollbacks (edit: one of these is restore to previous version).

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sengol&oldid=1165491677 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sengol&oldid=1165143945 EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Kup&oldid=1166659637

My edits were purely stylstic: to remove some flamboyant language favored by this editor. For e.g:

"As the Independence of India drew near, Jawaharlal Nehru and other luminaries of the Indian National Congress partook in many religious ceremonies that sought to augur well for the incipient nation and received a multitude of gifts in the process"

I think it is better more succinctly as:

"As the Independence of India drew near, Jawaharlal Nehru and other members of the Indian National Congress took part in many religious ceremonies and received gifts" Jagmanst (talk) 03:25, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you read the big red notice requiring you to notify TrangaBellam of this?

TrangaBellam isn't an administrator.

This is a content dispute, and does not belong here. Acroterion (talk) 03:34, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

My issue is the misuse of revert power. They also threatened to block me on my talk page, for having edited their wording. I'll look into how to notify them. I don't care about the content. If wikipedia prefers pompous language because an editor insists on it, then so be it. Jagmanst (talk) 03:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I see no abuse, they have explained what they're doing and why. They did not threaten to block you, because they can't - they're not an administrator. They said they would ask for one if you persisted. Perhaps not the best approach, but not actionable here. Work it out. You're being disagreed with. Acroterion (talk) 03:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The abuse of Rollback: "Rollback should only be used to revert vandalism and should never be used to revert good faith edits or in content disputes."

How do I work it out, when they keep rollbacking and manually reverting, and using threats? They have not explained anything. Frequent reverts and a threat to report me. Jagmanst (talk) 03:51, 29 July 2023 (UTC)Jagmanst (talk) 03:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Edited this incident to clarify they issue is the misuse of Rollback (not just edit warring).Jagmanst (talk) 04:06, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, Jagmanst did notify TrangaBellam of this discussion. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 04:11, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I haveJagmanst (talk) 04:20, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Observation. TrangaBellam has participated in discussions at Talk:Sengol. Jagmanst has not. I think that may answer the question of how Jagmanst should work it out. —C.Fred (talk) 04:15, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  The issue is misuse of Rollback. Jagmanst (talk) 04:22, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  (Also I have participated in discussions, not that it is relevant, actually: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sengol). My only changes after the deletion debate was making the writing better, and it was not disputed by anyone except this one editor who threatened to request to block me today. In fact I got my first thanks on wikipedia for these edits. Jagmanst (talk) 04:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  [130] did not use rollback, so cannot be misuse of rollback. [131] is, I would say, a borderline use of rollback, but nothing to write home about—the edit it reverted was POV-pushing and needed to be reverted, so we're really just nitpicking over the lack of a descriptive edit summary. If you have an issue with a single rollback someone makes, you should take it up with them on their talkpage, not drag them to AN/I. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 04:38, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  Part of the instructions on rollback is that it's allowable to use it if there is explanation given, which may be done on the talk page. I'll grant that it may be a borderline use of rollback but it's certainly not bad faith. I don't see anything here that requires administrator intervention. —C.Fred (talk) 04:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  "Rollback should only be used to revert vandalism and should never be used to revert good faith edits or in content disputes." POV correction is not a valid use. Nor is 'good faith' roll back allowed. Either the rule applies or not. Jagmanst (talk) 05:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  You seem to be quoting Wikipedia:Rollback policy, which is a failed policy proposal from 2008. My and C.Fred's comments are based on WP:ROLLBACKUSE, the actual guideline, under which TrangaBellam's revert was, at worst, a violation so minor that it doesn't matter, and at best not even a violation; one could argue that this was a case "where the reason for reverting is absolutely clear". All of that is to say, I would recommend you drop this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 05:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  Ok. thanks for sending me the latest Roll back policy.

  I disagree the roll back merely lacked explanation. It reverted good faith edits including mine, as part of content dispute perhaps.

  "The rollback tool should not usually be used to perform any revert which ought ordinarily to be explained, such as a revert of a good-faith content edit, nor should it be used in content disputes. However, rollback may be used in circumstances where widely spread edits (by a misguided editor or malfunctioning bot) are judged to be unhelpful to the encyclopedia, since such edits would be tedious to revert manually. In such instances, it is expected that an explanation will be provided in an appropriate location, such as at a relevant talk page." Jagmanst (talk) 05:15, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The path forward is to take the content dispute to the article's talk page. If it was a mistake, the editor who made it will hopefully be willing to restore helpful changes. If it was intentional, you may get the explanation you're looking for. If there's no response, try the user's talk page and then pursue other forms of dispute resolution. --GoneIn60 (talk) 05:30, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I fail to see the obvious reasons for their rollbacks or revert to previous version

See revert to previous version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sengol&diff=1165143945&oldid=1164723382

They just undid lot of my cleaning up of language.

Or this bonafide Rollback

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sengol&diff=1165491677&oldid=1165453880

Or this Rollback in which they deleted an entire article practically

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Kup&diff=1166659637&oldid=1166497361 Jagmanst (talk) 05:32, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

"I fail to see the obvious reasons..." – So begin a discussion and WP:NEGOTIATE. Discussion is "not a mere formality, but an integral part" of editing Wikipedia. It doesn't appear you've attempted this. --GoneIn60 (talk) 06:11, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

However my complaint is misuse of rollback and reversion to previous version of good faith edits. It was said earlier the rollback etc were obviously clear thing to do. They aren't. I welcome discussion. But the only discussion I received (weeks after my benigm edits to the article) was a threat to block me. Jagmanst (talk) 06:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Jagmanst, is it registering here that almost no one is agreeing with you? If your aim here is to convince people that you are not a tendentious editor out to argue the "I'm right so everyone else must be wrong" side, you are employing a singularly unproductive way of going about it. Ravenswing 12:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The edits of mine in concern were purely stylistic and therefore can't be considered biased. However yes, I do note a pattern of comments of people attacking the complainant rather than addressing the complaint itself. That is more indicative of a culture that permissive of toxic behaviors, and would be consistent with Wikipedia's longstanding reputation for exclusion. Jagmanst (talk) 13:05, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

No. What's that indicative of is that you are sounding increasingly shrill and argumentative, that your willful flipping of the metaphoric bird at numerous veteran administrators and editors is a poor look, and that several of us think that's a good deal more toxic a behavior than whether TrangaBellam was more trigger-happy on a couple of rollbacks than was warranted. I would suggest you change your course here at once, save for my conviction that you would reject any such advice out of hand. Ravenswing 16:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ravenswing I do concede that I was indeed more trigger-happy on a couple of rollbacks - esp. the one on battle of Kup - than was warranted. That won't be repeated. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Is the use of "shrill" consistent with WP:NPA? Jagmanst (talk) 16:31, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Here another Rollback the editor made. Basically killed an entire article without achieving consensus. Again rollback should not be used for POV, or content dispute, but only to remove vandalism and bad faith edits: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Kup&oldid=1166659637 Jagmanst (talk) 05:09, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Jagmanst, it is becoming clear that you are trying to use this noticeboard to have someone sanctioned so you can win a content dispute. That is not a wise strategy. Your conduct can be and is being reviewed, and your single-minded behavior here is not doing you any good. Once you post here, you do cannot control the discussion to focus on your preferred issue, and you do not have the right to do so. I strongly advise you to drop this matter and to seek a resolution through Wikipedia's normal dispute resolution processes, which involve discussion. Trying to Wikilawyer your perceived opponent into sanctions is only revealing issues with the way you are approaching editing on this very public noticeboard. Acroterion (talk) 13:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

My aim is to show that one editor has a pattern of misuse of roll back and revert to previous version to undo good faith edits. Jagmanst (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Which you keep saying, but have failed to do, and have been advised of that by many editors and administrators. Do you see the problem with that? At this point, this discussion is illustrating an issue with your conduct, a failure to listen to other editors when you are advised that you might be wrong about something. Acroterion (talk) 14:04, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Attacking the complainant instead of the complaint is not good look. Jagmanst (talk) 14:32, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not obligated to obey you. If you think otherwise file a complaint. Jagmanst (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

@Jagmanst When any editor opens a thread at ANI, their conduct is subject to scrutiny just as much as the conduct of the editor they are reporting is. It is not an attack to make a good-faith observation of problems with your conduct. —C.Fred (talk) 14:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The only conduct that has been criticized is the making of this complaint. I am not withdrawing it, nor will be intimidated into doing it. Not when there are administrators taking seriously the merits. Jagmanst (talk) 14:48, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Jagmanst, as someone with no dog in this fight I would like to tell you that every post you make in this section is making the already low chance that your complaint will be taken seriously even lower. It is also making the chance that you will suffer a WP:BOOMERANG sanction higher. MrOllie (talk) 14:52, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• OK, I do think this one is a problem. TB stubified a (sourced) article, claiming on the talk page that the sources weren't good enough. Another editor quite reasonably restored the material, saying that a large change like this should be discussed first. TB then ignored WP:BRD and rolled the massive change back again. That's not good. However, is it part of a pattern of bad use of rollback? Black Kite (talk) 07:33, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  There is a longstanding pattern of misuse of low tier sources to peddle drivel on articles concerning Sikh history. The edits on Battle of Kup had spiralled out of a discussion on User:Abecedare's t/p. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:56, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  I am aware of this, but you don't use rollback to edit-war regardless of whether you believe you are right. That's a no-no. If you are removing sourced material you need to say exactly why you are are doing this on the talk page. The note you did leave on the TP was far too vague; you can't just say these suorces are no good, you need to say why. Black Kite (talk) 13:28, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  Point taken. I have published a detailed evaluation of the sources — almost everything is either from the British Raj era or panned by scholars or trade books or even, SPS. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  For what it's worth, here is another example of TB removing sourced material by Rollback, without edit summary nor talk page comment: [132]. I wasn't impressed. Andreas JN466 13:38, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, that was a mis-click. If I apply rollback, I will always leave a note on t/p.

  Frankly, given that you believed — and perhaps still believe — that Grabowski, et al were unduly privileged and people like Berendt unfairly classed as the fringe, I do not see why you would take umbrage over the rollback which had removed a criticism of the subject by Grabowski! To summarize, a critical line was proposed by me, you agreed and included it, and I mistakenly rollbacked it. That is not me using rollback to win a content dispute, eh? As is always, the context is important — this could have been a case of tool misuse, if I was using it to tweak the article in my favor. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:47, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  If I apply rollback, I will always leave a note on t/p. I am not so sure that is true. For example, did you do so in this case? I can't see it, and on the face of it, both of these lede wordings reflected views supported by the article's body text. Andreas JN466 14:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  You did not answer the most important part — when I (mistakenly) rollbacked your edits, did I try to win a content dispute? Or was I effectively undoing my own edit? TrangaBellam (talk) 14:43, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  And, Andreas, I won't hear from you on content much less on S. Asian topics. I choose to note that Vanamonde93, a functionary and a long-standing editor in these domains, did the same edit as me noting "Rv unexplained modifications to sourced content". Maybe, we have some clue, that you don't? And maybe, you will also accept that unexplained modifications to sourced content in a highly contentious article equates to bright-line vandalism that needs to be rollbacked? TrangaBellam (talk) 14:47, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  Woah, no. "Unexplained modifications to sourced content in a highly contentious article" does not equal vandalism per se. Come on, WP:NOTVAND is quite clear. Users may be sanctioned for disruptive editing or edit-warring but even if their edits fall into that category, it is still not vandalism and rollback should not be used in most cases. Just use manual revert and a summary. Black Kite (talk) 16:51, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

  I see that Bishonen blocked the editor, in question, for these very edits and categorized the rollbacked edits as opinionated editing which goes counter to sources. I wonder if editing counter to sources can be called vandalism but never mind. I won't be rollbacking anything in future perhaps except total blanking of content or replacement of text with dick-pics. That's my last comment in this thread. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• OP probably needs a boomerang but there doe appear to be legitimate issues with TrangaBellam's conduct here... Their belief that misuse of Rollback isn't misuse unless its used to win a content dispute is disturbing and raised serious questions about whether they currently possess the competence to use that tool. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• Which one of the rollbacks is a "misuse" except at the Battle of Kup — the one at the Hindu American Foundation or the one which I categorically said to be a mis-click? I raised the content-dispute-angle to justify that it was indeed a misclick; otherwise, it won't make sense to use the nuclear option on an edit that was actually proposed by me. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I am new to wikipedia but I believe I am entitled to a presumption of good faith when I made this complaint, which at least some editors find merit. Jagmanst (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

"Misuse of rollback" at ANI always feels like an easyish "gotcha" when there's not enough evidence/support for real offenses. A way to get some satisfaction against someone you're in a dispute with or a way to get something to stick to an unblockable (not saying Tranga is in this category -- it's just the context for when I see "rollback abuse" come up here). If misuse of rollback is the worst offense you're seeing, it's not really worth bringing here IMO. They could do exactly the same thing using Twinkle or another tool that rolls back without using "rollback". Part of the "anyone can edit" thing means anyone can undo an edit, too. In fact, we tend to make it easier for people who want to restore the status quo than those who want to change something. Trouts for TB for trying to force their changes (using rollback or whatever) at Battle of Kup, and for restoring purple prose in the Sengol article. I can't fault Jagmanst for reading guidance on rollback and thinking it's talking about reverts in general, but now that this mistake is better understood (i.e. "yes, if you make a change someone else can undo it and ask you to argue on the talk page about why it's an improvement"), there's probably nothing else to do here. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

TPA revocation request: 46.34.161.240

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

46.34.161.240 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), blocked for spamming talk pages with requests for donations, is continuing to do so on their talk page; they neither appear to have no interest in actually editing the encyclopedia nor appear likely to intend to make any legitimate unblock requests, and hence have no need for continued talk page access. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

TPA revoked. Courcelles (talk) 04:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Nuclear_Sergeant

Can someone take a look at this, as well as this and this? They claim not to be a sock, which I have no reason to not believe, but their contributions nonetheless throw up all kinds of red flags for me.

Some select diffs to clarify what I'm talking about here: [133] [134] [135] [136]

Could be just me, but between the constant use of seemingly random emoji, the repeated references to "the admins" and "WP:BITE", and the habit of leaving random comments in strange places for a new user to end up (like the reference desk [137]), I get the impression that this might be a return customer of some description, and if it's not, the behaviour is still quite clearly disruptive. Best regards, --Licks-rocks (talk) 12:53, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Appears to be a WP:NOTHERE editor. Lavalizard101 (talk) 13:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

• I've blocked Nuclear Sergeant as NOTHERE. I don't know who they are. Could just be an immature kid, possibly a troll, possibly a sock, but they're not an asset to the project. I haven't blocked the earlier account. They claim they no longer have the password, and there's no e-mail associated with the account so they can't recover it. If another admin thinks User:Unfriendly Aliens should be blocked prophylactically, that's fine. If anyone notices that UA suddenly starts editing again, please let me know.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Ridhwanahsan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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WP:NOTHERE. Misuse of Wikipedia as a self-promoting free website service. Fumikas Sagisavas (talk) 13:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:JArthur1984 Hounding

User:JArthur1984, an editor who seems to solely be adding positive content related to China, got into an edit war with me and others at Qin Gang, then stalked us to Fu Xiaotian where he/she began a similar edit war. I warned the editor about hounding, but they persisted. Can we get admin intervention and possibly a topic ban? NickCT (talk) 15:58, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

It should be noted that the disputed content relating to Fu Xiaotian is being discussed at WP:BLPN. [138] The disputed content (claiming 'forced disappearance') appears not to be supported by the sources cited, and is thus a clear violation of WP:BLP policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

It should also be noted that sources claim/suggest a connection between Qin Gang's disappearance from public and Fu Xiaotian's disappearance from public. It's completely natural that an editor interested in one is interested in the other. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 16:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Yup. Discussing the same subject in two linked articles isn't 'hounding'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Dude reverted Amigao on one page, then moments later, MADE THE SAME REVERT on a seperate page. You'd be crazy to think he wasn't stalking. NickCT (talk) 16:30, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

If I want an opinion on whether I'm crazy or not, I'll look for someone qualified to give it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:34, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Way to address the point. NickCT (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

NickCT has just made a gross personal attack on a contributor at WP:BLPN, for no better reason than said contributor pointing out that content needs to be sourced, rather than imagined. [139] Boomerang time, I think... AndyTheGrump (talk)

A gross personal attack? I pointed out that organizations that "disappear" people like it when folks aren't willing recognize that people have been dsiappeared without proper sourcing. NickCT (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Have you ever read Law of holes? You probably should... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

You should probably just read period. You appreciate the irony in demanding evidence that someone has been "forcibly disappeared", right? The whole point of disappearing people is that you don't leave evidence. NickCT (talk) 16:33, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia requires reliable sources. The absence of evidence for something isn't a reliable source... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:37, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

This conversation is going to get circular. I've started an RfC on the topic. We should let that play out. NickCT (talk) 16:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

An RfC on the content dispute would quite likely be a good idea. There are however behavioural issues that need to be resolved, in my opinion, and they need to be discussed here. Starting, it would seem, with determining whether the 'hounding' claim was justified, and continuing with aspersions being made on a contributor who did nothing beyond pointing out core policy, and an apparent inability to recognise that core policy precludes basing content on lack of evidence. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:46, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I thought I started a conversation about whether the hounding claim was justified.

If went through your contribution history now, and visited all the pages you'd been to in order to enforce a policy, it wouldn't matter whether I was right or wrong about a "core policy". All that would matter was that I was hounding you. NickCT (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

You started a conversation about supposed 'hounding'. So far, you seem not to have convinced anybody that it has taken place. And I sincerely hope you don't since the implications of such a broad interpretation of 'hounding' would be grossly damaging to the project, in my opinion. It is entirely normal and accepted behaviour to look at closely-linked articles when discussing a contentious matter in a specific one, and if doing so one finds the same issue in the linked article, to begin editing there. Not just normal behaviour, but best practice, where WP:BLP or similar core policy is concerned. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:22, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not hounding this editor. This is an attempt by the editor to turn a content disagreement where the consensus continues to form against the editor's unsourced contentious BLP edits into a series of personal attacks. Those personal attacks first came against me, and now they are coming against others.

@AndyTheGrump refers to the notion of Boomerang and the Law of Holes. Those are apt observations. Early in the content disagreement, the editor who started this topic implied that I was a paid Chinese internet troll, writing, "Some 50 cent army types would argue that "disappearing from public life" is somehow meaningfully different from simply 'disappearing'."

I wanted (and continue to want) to address the unsourced edits without personal contretemps. The editor has not produced a source for his claim. Instead of providing a source, he "warned" me not to hound him. That was nonsensical. Later, I began a topic at the BLP noticeboard, because the editor re-added the unsourced content, and I did not want to violate 3RR and indeed prefer not to have any further one-on-one interaction. My approach is exactly the right approach when continued back-and-forth is non-productive.

I started that BLP noticeboard content topic at 15:06. I did not tag the editor or even identify them by their name. I added a template to the article talk page as required. At 15:58, the editor began this ANI.

The editor is now engaged in other personal attacks against the other editors who disagree with the editor. On the BLP noticeboard, the editor told another person, "I imagine the Stasi would have liked you." On Talk:Fu_Xiaotian, the editor now says that @AndyTheGrump is stalking him.

My editing is compliant with all policies and, as another user points out above, indeed the best practice where BLP or another core policy is inolved. I encourage anyone interested to review the relevant histories and talk topics. JArthur1984 (talk) 17:51, 29 July 2023 (UTC)